both are. have fun fighting eachother in the mud.
All states are authoritarian, in that they are instruments by which one class oppresses the others. What this doesn’t say anything about alone, though, is which class is in power. In the US Empire, the capitalists are in power, and use the authority of the state to crush workers when workers rise up. In the PRC, the working class is in power, and the state keeps capitalists in check and appropriates their capital gradually.
The only way out of authoritarian control by any class is to get rid of classes entirely, which requires full collectivization of production. China is actively building towards that, the US Empire is opposing it. Until we get to a classless society, it’s better for the working class to be in charge.
In other words, class struggle will continue to exist even after the proletariat takes control. All of the tensions from class struggle continue to exist, only they are resolved in favor of the working class. This is what “authoritarianism” looks like, class conflict expressed in state response.
“the working class” meaning the (one) party tho, lol.
Yes. Democracy isn’t about choosing between parties, but having substantive input on direction that results in the will of the people being carried out. This is true of China, policy is typically driven from the bottom-up, a process called “whole process people’s democracy.” This is expressed, as an example, through Five Year Plans that are the result of mass polling and suggestions among the populace. The CPC has over 100 million members in a country of 1.4 billion.
The state isn’t a class in and of itself, it can only serve as representative of a class. In the PRC, that class is the working class. The communists beat the nationalists in the Chinese Civil War, and from that point on the working class has been in control.
This is your brain on black-and-white thinking
Nah dude, nobody talked about an in-between. China bad, and America going bad too. In his image op implies people think that because China bad, america cannot be lol. That’s stupid
Yall would be demonizing the Algerians or Vietnamese people fighting for their independence from France’s ruthless colonial rule as “authoritarian”, and “both sides bad”.
I was gonna reply stuff but I don’t see how I could gain anything from it ? I was initially saying op’s take implied something stupid (note that I’m not saying your scapegoats don’t exist; but if they do they’re probably a minority), and that yours created a kind of “moderate” persona who’s always in between political views to mock that other user’s comment about not everything being all black or white. Which I replied to by affirming China already black and america going darker.
And now you’re bringing more unrelated shit into athe situation lol. Isolating both china and america they both look like shit, albeit one more than the other. Idk who the fuck is in your “y’all” but it doesn’t really matter to me and I don’t feel targeted. I don’t know enough about the stuff you tried to push on me to properly debate anyways, so I’m just gonna go sleep and enjoy my night lol.
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Lemmy.ml has a ton of communists, communists tend to support socialist countries 🤷
China is about as socialist as my shit is a bouquet of roses.
It’s capitalism. It’s always capitalism.
The large firms and key industries are overwhelmingly publicly owned, and the working class is in charge of the state. It’s been socialist since the CPC beat the Kuomintang. The presence of private property in a system doesn’t mean the system is capitalist, this was already understood in Marx’s time.
False.
Is China State Capitalist?
- The backbone of the economy is state ownership and socialist planning. 24 / 25 of the top revenue companies are state-owned and planned. 70% of the top 500 companies are State-owned. 1, 2 The largest bank, construction, electricity, and energy companies in the world, are CPC controlled entities, subject to the 5 year plans laid out by the central committee.
- Workplace democracy in action in the CPC.
- Is modern day china communist? Is it staying true to communist values?
- Didn’t China go Capitalist with Deng Xiaoping? Didn’t it liberalize its economy? Is China’s drastic decrease in poverty a result of the increase in free market capitalist policies?
- Is the CPC committed to communism?
- The Long Game and Its Contradictions. Audiobook
- The myth of Chinese state capitalism. Did Deng really betray Chinese socialism?
- Tsinghua University- Is Socialism with Chinese Characteristics real socialism, or is it state Capitalism?
- Isn’t China revisionist for having a capitalist sector of the economy, and working with capitalists? Why isn’t it fully planned like the USSR was?
- Castro on why both China and Vietnam are socialist countries.
- Roderic Day - China has billionaires.
- What is socialism with Chinese characteristics (SWCC)?
- How is SWCC not revisionist? How is it any different from Gorbachev’s market reforms?, 2
- Domenico Losurdo - is China state capitalist?, 2
- Did Lenin say anything about Market Socialism, or productivism?
- Vijay Prashad - Is China capitalist?
- Why do Chinese billionaires keep ending up in prison? Why are many billionaires and CEOs going missing? China sentences Ex-Chairman of a major bank, guilty of embezzling ~$100M USD, to death in 2019.
- China cracks down on billionaires - Ben Norton interviews Ian Goodrum
- Do capitalists control the communist party? No, pic
- How the State runs business in China.
At some point, you gotta dance with who brung ya. If, after over a century of experimentation, you conclude that every single AES state is as evil as the CIA tells us, there’s not much socialism to support.
You also really need to jam your eyes shut and ignore the enormous improvements in quality of life, even in the face of adverse economic headwinds, in the surviving socialist block. “Ah, but I’m not free to shitpost on the Internet the same way!” is such sad metric for a country’s success
You mean freedom of speech… That’s what you’re saying is not an important value? The freedom to speak truth to power without the goon squad kicking down your door? Clearly that is being eroded in the US right now, but China certainly doesn’t have it.
You mean freedom of speech…
I mean “posting online”.
The freedom to speak truth to power without the goon squad kicking down your door?
Has never existed in a practical sense within the United States. Not under Bush. Not under Eisenhower. Not under Woodrow Wilson. Not under James Buchanan. Not under John Adams.
Americans have a long and storied history of arresting outspoken dissidents, assaulting them, and disappearing anyone who persisted.
Clearly that is being eroded in the US right now
We have more political prisoners in jail today than China has had since the end of the colonial era.
China has it for the working class. Capitalist speech and misinformation are targeted, but the working class is largely free to say what they want.
It doesn’t exist, how is that hard to admit for you? Freedom of speech is intended to protect exactly the kind of speech you disagree with, otherwise it’s not a thing. “Largely free” = NOT FREE
Then nowhere has freedom of speech. True freedom of speech only exists for the ruling class of society, and the speech of those other classes oppressed by them that agree with the ruling class. In the US Empire, freedom of speech only truly exists for capitalists. In the PRC, it’s the opposite, it only exists for the working class, and those who do not oppose the working class.
liberals brain breaking
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China is indeed authoritarian, rich people cannot shape society however they want in China.
Both are garbage. The US is just a bigger pile of garbage (for now).
Totally both are garbage. But from anti-colonial and anti-authoritarian perspective, US has always been garbage. Trump only removed the pretensions. I mean, Joe Biden affirmed that US will invade Holland if any Americans are arrested by the International Court there. So much for a country that purports rules based international order, if the most supreme power the world has ever seen confirmed that such rules and order don’t apply to them.
Hi, CIA
recently found out this is a shunned view on a lot of lemmy
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I’m not very tech savvy and I’m just happy to have an account somewhere lol.
🤣
generally lemmy.ml is known for being a community with strong opinions on the subject.
Communists tend to support communists 🤷
Yes, true
Thank God that in China you can’t simply be “disappeared”, you won’t be sent to reeducation camps, and you won’t be slaughtered.
Right?
Good thing you ate the capitalists’ propaganda onion and are now doing their work for free, contributing to your continued exploitation.
Meanwhile people actually are being disappeared in the US right now, and people actually are subjected to forced labor.
And you don’t think this happens in China?
I have no reason to believe people are being disappeared, no, but I do have reason to believe that the US and its junior partners will continue claiming that they are. It’s big business.
Just more western propaganda to push the china bad narrative
Yea yea yea, just keep parroting those liberal talking points ROFL
How much have you travelled, lived and worked in China? How far outside the tier 1 cities have you gotten?
If you think every criticism of China is just liberal talking points, I assume the answers to those questions are all “not very much”.
Correct, you won’t.
US is in a situation where even the Chinese government can make fun of how undemocratic it is. I think this explains a lot.
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Nafo clown propagandists eating shit as usual.
Edit because you did an edit:
Authoritarian state
Wet water
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
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establish a platform discussing history of Tiennaman square or Uyghurs without strictly adhering to government set guidelines, then they will likely be prosecuted.
Tienanmen square has a 600 year history. You’re referring to one event, which is censored. But even that doesn’t cover the portion that is relevant to the history of Tiennaman, no part of the protests is censored. Uighur history also doesn’t have any censors.
It is true that you have been able to identify one censor in your two topics (albeit with inaccurate wording). It’s also a particularly sensitive topic with strong disinformation campaigns targetting it. In 2020, many states worldwide issued censors on COVID and vaccine related topics for similar reasons.
Libs be like “this is a totally organic movement with broad local support”
Take a moment to imagine the absolutely demonic levels of McCarthyism that would be unleashed if it was discovered that BLM or the Green Party were headquartered in Beijing.
Don’t forget they also love Israel. Xinjiang avoided the fate of Gaza and all the people complaining about China being “heavy handed” there should just shut up.
Holy shit
They even have the same fucking graphic design style of the state department fam lmao how are gringos real
Poor analogy. The US kills muslim people like they were rats. The secretary of offense is covered in tattoos glorifying the Medieval crusades and wrote a book titled “American Crusade” explaining the US is in a “holy war” agains muslims and China.
So “East Turkestan government in exile” is headquartered in the capital of the empire that is is in a bloodthirsthy fanatical war against muslims. This empire also has “must destroy China” as its foreign policy absolute priority.
Therefore, the corret analogy would be a separatist Jewish movement that wanted to take away a critical part of the USSR. And it is funded and headquartered in Nazi Germany. Who would believe them? The same people who believe the US is motivated by love of Muslims and only reluctantly funds a separatist movement to take away a critical part of China.
Responding to a federated comment because I don’t have a .ml account:
Okay, but we are talking about a country where you aren’t allowed to form a political party that opposes the CCP, right?
There are eight other parties in the People’s Republic of China other than the *CPC
My favorite is the ICP
That is a camper van. Probably cozy tbh
Freedom with the most people in prison
They’re not always in prison, sometimes we let them do their forced labor outside.
Agreed, the US prison system is legalized form of slavery
China has noodles though.
Delicious noodles!
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maybe we should hold a vote to defederate from them
Oh no! What ever will we do without the libs!
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Imagine shilling for the modern American and European states like they’re anything anything like the ideals of socialism. Lmao. Ah yes, a neo-liberal oligarchic state ala America and a mass-surveilled and thought-crime regulating state ala the EU, what a worker’s paradise.
Here’s a question for your NATO handlers, if your ideas are so good, why do you feel the need to limit your citizen’s access to affordable healthcare? Why did they feel the need to treat the working class in such a way?
Because they have the same mentality as the uber religious, they think their beliefs are the one truth, but yet they’re terrified they can’t stand up to new information.
Don’t get me wrong, China might have its small issues, but at least they prioritize collective welfare over individual greed.
your NATO handlers
You’ve definitely absorbed some propaganda. It’s anyone’s guess whether it came from Russia or China though. There is literally no reason to have a problem with NATO.
NATO is a millitary alliance of the world’s imperialist powers. Just like the cops are the thugs protecting capital, NATO are the fascists protecting imperialism. NATO destroyed Libya and Yugoslavia, and has launched terrorist attacks.
Small issues . Lmao ok. Tell me what the the villages are like in rural China. Have the collective welfare trickled down to them yet?
And open access to information via the internet and open speech are one of the main pillars of a successful society, and neither states have that. Who cares if you’re my comrade of I can’t speak against you if need be or have the ability to refute your information with research.
China has one of the fastest growing numbers of millionaires in the world yet its farmers and factory workers are still poor as shit, how’s that collectivism? It’s just state capitalism
The gap between rural and urban development has long been acknowledged and is already something worked on. The famous poverty eraducation campaign was focused on just that. Read The Metamorphosis of Yuangudui to see what that looks like in practice.
Secondly, the speech of capitalists and western media is restricted, but citizens speak to each other freely. The purpose of the control on western and capitalist propaganda is to develop independence and not let the west set the narrative.
Lastly, purchasing Power in 2022 was 25 times higher than 1978. This process is continuous. Further, the large firms and key industries are publicly owned, it’s a socialist country. You need to turn off Fox News and actually look at what’s happening in China right now.
citizens speak to each other freely
Can citizens investigate their government and publish and distribute criticisms of their government?
Depends, are they capitalists trying to undermine the system, or are they genuinely in support of socialism? If the former, no, if the latter, probably, though again if your other comments are anything to go by you just want liberalism to take over China.
This is a tier 4 city in China. Which is far down the development ladder and considered poor.
The vast majority of Chinese live in cities like this or better. Saying that there are still poor villages, well I give you this
Kensington Philadelphia is so drug infested people walk around like zombies. Does China have poor areas like that? Actually no, even the poorest villages aren’t that bad.
Just changing the Countries names doesn’t make it true… There is no mass surveillance in Europe. There is in China.
There’s absolutely mass surveilance in Europe, lmao.
Sure buddy, if you say so
Yes, I do, lol.
There is britain, the most surveilled country on earth… its in europe…
Extremely incorrect, in any easily verifiable way for which a reasonable person would be deeply embarrassed
Please report comments like this in the future ppl.
You are correct, this is all imaginary
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We are not all like this. I think this meme is stupid too.
Yeah every one I’ve come across in the last few days have sounded like children. Or maybe they didn’t train hard enough on their language skills at troll camp
Does the liberal mindset have no bottom to the ChInA BaD narratives it can spin?
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Winnie the Pooh was never banned in China, be less gullible
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Lol you are like a little baby
Oh my, you have a NATOpedia article? Clearly that’s beyond reproach.
I guess Epstein killed himself and Nordstream just did that on its own.
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Using a yellow bear to refer to a Chinese man is pretty clearly a racist dogwhistle.
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China is a great place to live, that is constantly improving and developing. The evidence backs this.
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China isn’t imperialist, it doesn’t run an economy focused on international extraction like the west does.
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Pure projection
They’re right, cry about it
100% Agree. They all seem to be excusing chinese authoritarianism
Bedtimes are authoritarian
No bedtime, no spinach 😤
