i don’t do any of that, but that is your go-to response for the term.
this has come of my lived experience of interacting with you. it has been what you have put forth to me in your full-throated support of, as you say, AES states.
NOW, having said that, if you have some examples to show me of your nuanced critique of the human rights abuses of these authoritarian states, i’d actually love to see them. they did not come up in our last interaction. maybe they will change my view of you and of your brand of communism.
re: authoritarianism
we have interacted in the past, and of course you wouldn’t recall. no reason you would, and that’s totally ok. but you are active enough i’m sure you realize that ppl remember you.
i’m ok with being anti-communist if that is indeed what i am. but because i am actively inquiring into Socialist thought to see if i can be Socialist, it’s just not a category i am sure of yet (either pro/anti communism, socialism, insert-Leftist-ideology-here, etc). i do know i am anti-authoritarian, and that will not change.
re: critique
“I find that it’s usually Marxist-Leninists that are the most critical of AES along genuine lines, as we’ve done the due dilligence of sepparating fact from fiction so we can learn what went wrong and what went right.”
i’ve heard you say this before. it strikes me as a bit hubristic and if i were you i’d remain concerned about the accuracy of reports/data from AES states, same as i don’t trust the US’s opinion of itself.
nevertheless, i remain open and interested in what you can present of this.
I support AES, like the overwhelming majority of Marxist-Leninists, who in turn make up the overwhelming majority of Marxists, to begin with. I don’t know what you mean by “full-throated.” Do you mean I am loudly supportive, or uncritically supportive? If it’s the former, I should hope so! A better world is possible! I refuse to cede ground to those whose stances align more with bourgeois narratives about AES states than proletarian narratives.
If it’s the latter, then I disagree vehemontly. Criticism and self-criticism are core principles of Marxism-Leninism. The CPC, the largest Marxist-Leninist party in the world at ~96 million members, paints both Stalin and Mao at “70% good, 30% bad.” That’s hardly uncritical support. What is opposed is dogmatic rejection of socialist leaders. Critique based on dogma cedes the narrative to the bourgeoisie.
As far as examples, I already noted early Cuba’s homophobia, the same applies to the Soviet Union (though some areas like the GDR became more progressive over time, and the USSR in general was extremely progressive from a feminist point of view compared to its peers), and the PRC as well, as an example. Socially, the PRC is behind Cuba and Vietnam, despite having a better economic model. Things are improving steadily, but they have a long way to go.
Does that satisfy, or are you just going to endlessly move the goalposts?
Re: “authoritarianism”
Marxist-Leninists are anti-authoritarian too. Hear it straight from Lenin:
While the State exists there can be no freedom; when there is freedom there will be no State.
Since all states are authoritarian, we need to abolish the state. But, we can only do that once class ceases to exist, and we can only do so once everyone’s social relation to production is interchangeable and the same, ie a classless society based on collectivization. The goal of socialism is to accomplish this, and until all property is sublimated there will be class, and as such until then the state will remain, as it must.
If you’re actively inquiring into socialist thought, then you owe it to yourself to explore Marxism-Leninism. It’s the most significant and largest branch of Marxism, which in turn is the most significant and largest umbrella under the “socialist” banner. Here’s an introductory ML reading list I made, check it out if you wish. If you’re “anti-authoritarian,” then you should explore what that actually means, beyond just supporting systems when they aren’t in crisis and going back on that when they are (see the Nazi Germany vs. Modern Germany example for what I mean, both are equally “authoritarian” in that their class structure is the same but the extent of oppression was based on circumstance)
Re: Critique
I don’t purely trust data from AES, I trust data that has significant historical evidence. This is hard to prove without specific examples, but in absence of that, here’s my critique of the Gang of Four period of the PRC:
“Does that satisfy, or are you just going to endlessly move the goalposts?”
don’t do this. do you want to de-escalate or not? stay on topic.
is it satisfactory? not really, but i don’t expect you to dump a treatise on a chat board.
i want particular looks into political persecutions in these states, cults of personalities, corruption and abuse of powers, imbalanced relationships between Russia and other USSR states, treatment of Uyghurs, China’s social cred system, these kinds of items.
i do NOT expect you to address any of these items here, and i’m not asking you to.
you will say that my views are tainted by biased capitalist propaganda. if that’s true, where would you suggest i go to get information on these topics? mind you, i will look very askance at anything that is coming from a socialist echo chamber, since they will also have their own biases.
I’m not really trying to escalate or de-escalate. My goal is to either get you to walk away with a more nuanced understanding, one that adheres closer to reality, or to give onlookers good information. That’s why I usually include a good amount of links and resources, even if I don’t expect everyone I talk to to go in and read them. I’ve been directly thanked by other users for doing what I do and giving them new perspective or changing their minds, including users I have never spoken with previously, so I know my strategy has teeth to it. I may stumble in some conversations or do well in others, but as a net result, I can take pride in knowing thay my strategy is sound.
Either way, I would certainly hope you look at Marxist sources critically. All sources are biased, so it’s better to be honest about it. One of Mao’s more important texts that absolutely holds up today is Oppose Book Worship. A dogmatic comrade is more of an enemy than an ally, dogmatism leads to errors in judgement, and these errors in judgement lead to taking those who aren’t actually enemies and are in fact potential allies as enemies.
Read them critically, but check the cited sources, look for holes and gaps, don’t just blindly reject or accept them. Critical reading is important for everyone, not just leftists. Any reading where you aren’t engaging with the text and just uncritically absorbing it is book worship, and should be opposed strongly.
Fair enough. As of the time I write this comment, I have actually expanded the comment and fleshed it out more with good articles to explain some nuances I left hanging that can be confusing without a background in Marxism, so I recommend re-checking it.
re: tankie
i don’t do any of that, but that is your go-to response for the term.
this has come of my lived experience of interacting with you. it has been what you have put forth to me in your full-throated support of, as you say, AES states.
NOW, having said that, if you have some examples to show me of your nuanced critique of the human rights abuses of these authoritarian states, i’d actually love to see them. they did not come up in our last interaction. maybe they will change my view of you and of your brand of communism.
re: authoritarianism
we have interacted in the past, and of course you wouldn’t recall. no reason you would, and that’s totally ok. but you are active enough i’m sure you realize that ppl remember you.
i’m ok with being anti-communist if that is indeed what i am. but because i am actively inquiring into Socialist thought to see if i can be Socialist, it’s just not a category i am sure of yet (either pro/anti communism, socialism, insert-Leftist-ideology-here, etc). i do know i am anti-authoritarian, and that will not change.
re: critique
“I find that it’s usually Marxist-Leninists that are the most critical of AES along genuine lines, as we’ve done the due dilligence of sepparating fact from fiction so we can learn what went wrong and what went right.”
i’ve heard you say this before. it strikes me as a bit hubristic and if i were you i’d remain concerned about the accuracy of reports/data from AES states, same as i don’t trust the US’s opinion of itself.
nevertheless, i remain open and interested in what you can present of this.
Re: “tankies”
I support AES, like the overwhelming majority of Marxist-Leninists, who in turn make up the overwhelming majority of Marxists, to begin with. I don’t know what you mean by “full-throated.” Do you mean I am loudly supportive, or uncritically supportive? If it’s the former, I should hope so! A better world is possible! I refuse to cede ground to those whose stances align more with bourgeois narratives about AES states than proletarian narratives.
If it’s the latter, then I disagree vehemontly. Criticism and self-criticism are core principles of Marxism-Leninism. The CPC, the largest Marxist-Leninist party in the world at ~96 million members, paints both Stalin and Mao at “70% good, 30% bad.” That’s hardly uncritical support. What is opposed is dogmatic rejection of socialist leaders. Critique based on dogma cedes the narrative to the bourgeoisie.
As far as examples, I already noted early Cuba’s homophobia, the same applies to the Soviet Union (though some areas like the GDR became more progressive over time, and the USSR in general was extremely progressive from a feminist point of view compared to its peers), and the PRC as well, as an example. Socially, the PRC is behind Cuba and Vietnam, despite having a better economic model. Things are improving steadily, but they have a long way to go.
Does that satisfy, or are you just going to endlessly move the goalposts?
Re: “authoritarianism”
Marxist-Leninists are anti-authoritarian too. Hear it straight from Lenin:
Since all states are authoritarian, we need to abolish the state. But, we can only do that once class ceases to exist, and we can only do so once everyone’s social relation to production is interchangeable and the same, ie a classless society based on collectivization. The goal of socialism is to accomplish this, and until all property is sublimated there will be class, and as such until then the state will remain, as it must.
If you’re actively inquiring into socialist thought, then you owe it to yourself to explore Marxism-Leninism. It’s the most significant and largest branch of Marxism, which in turn is the most significant and largest umbrella under the “socialist” banner. Here’s an introductory ML reading list I made, check it out if you wish. If you’re “anti-authoritarian,” then you should explore what that actually means, beyond just supporting systems when they aren’t in crisis and going back on that when they are (see the Nazi Germany vs. Modern Germany example for what I mean, both are equally “authoritarian” in that their class structure is the same but the extent of oppression was based on circumstance)
Re: Critique
I don’t purely trust data from AES, I trust data that has significant historical evidence. This is hard to prove without specific examples, but in absence of that, here’s my critique of the Gang of Four period of the PRC:
That should cover it, I think?
“Does that satisfy, or are you just going to endlessly move the goalposts?”
don’t do this. do you want to de-escalate or not? stay on topic.
is it satisfactory? not really, but i don’t expect you to dump a treatise on a chat board.
i want particular looks into political persecutions in these states, cults of personalities, corruption and abuse of powers, imbalanced relationships between Russia and other USSR states, treatment of Uyghurs, China’s social cred system, these kinds of items.
i do NOT expect you to address any of these items here, and i’m not asking you to.
you will say that my views are tainted by biased capitalist propaganda. if that’s true, where would you suggest i go to get information on these topics? mind you, i will look very askance at anything that is coming from a socialist echo chamber, since they will also have their own biases.
re: authoritarianism
i hear what you’re saying. good thoughts.
re: critique
yes, this is much better. deeper, more nuanced.
I’m not really trying to escalate or de-escalate. My goal is to either get you to walk away with a more nuanced understanding, one that adheres closer to reality, or to give onlookers good information. That’s why I usually include a good amount of links and resources, even if I don’t expect everyone I talk to to go in and read them. I’ve been directly thanked by other users for doing what I do and giving them new perspective or changing their minds, including users I have never spoken with previously, so I know my strategy has teeth to it. I may stumble in some conversations or do well in others, but as a net result, I can take pride in knowing thay my strategy is sound.
Either way, I would certainly hope you look at Marxist sources critically. All sources are biased, so it’s better to be honest about it. One of Mao’s more important texts that absolutely holds up today is Oppose Book Worship. A dogmatic comrade is more of an enemy than an ally, dogmatism leads to errors in judgement, and these errors in judgement lead to taking those who aren’t actually enemies and are in fact potential allies as enemies.
For an example of this disastrous method in practice, see the Communist Party of Peru - Shining Path, who took the peasantry as reactionary and murdered 69 people in the Lucanamarca massacre due to the CPP-SP’s adoption of the Gonzaloist tendency “Marxism-Leninism-Maoism.” This is not to be confused with Marxism-Leninism/Mao Zedong Thought, which is the ideology of the CPC (or, currently, Marxism-Leninism/Xi Jinping Thought, which synthesizes Mao Zedong Thought with Deng Xiaoping Theory for Socialism With Chinese Characteristics), “Maoism” is an Ultraleft tendency. “Ultraleftism” is taken very seriously as a threat to the communist movement.
Either way, I recommend reading ProleWiki, Qiao Collective, Red Sails, Liberation News, Fight Back! News, Comrade’s Library, and, of course, the theoretical texts written by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. (here collected on ProleWiki). There are of course many more sources you can check, but these are all explicitly Marxist-Leninist sources, from theory to essays to news articles to encyclopedia entries from a leftist perspective.
Read them critically, but check the cited sources, look for holes and gaps, don’t just blindly reject or accept them. Critical reading is important for everyone, not just leftists. Any reading where you aren’t engaging with the text and just uncritically absorbing it is book worship, and should be opposed strongly.
we’re hitting a good point here, just recognize that and don’t ruin it.
good stuff here. thanks. i’ll add them to my inquiry list.
let’s stop here before it gets ruined. XD
until the next time!
Fair enough. As of the time I write this comment, I have actually expanded the comment and fleshed it out more with good articles to explain some nuances I left hanging that can be confusing without a background in Marxism, so I recommend re-checking it.