• porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      3 days ago

      Because if you want anything to change, the pressure has got to be applied in the right direction. If people just keep blaming their neighbours, of course no politician will ever feel like they have to do anything to improve things.

      • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        3 days ago

        If you want anything to change, you need to take effective actions. The consequence politicians face by taking ineffective actions is maybe not winning their race. The consequence our neighbors face by taking ineffective actions is the erosion of their civil rights.

        If you actually want to pressure politicians, you do it by contacting them directly to inform them of their failings, they’re not just going to magically know why you didn’t vote or vote third party.

        Protest voting doesn’t apply the pressure you think it does.

        • porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          3 days ago

          If you actually want to pressure politicians, you do it by contacting them directly to inform them of their failings

          Sure, that’s a thing you should do

          they’re not just going to magically know why you didn’t vote or vote third party

          They actually expend substantial effort and sums of money to find this out, there’s nothing magical about it.

          Protest voting doesn’t apply the pressure you think it does.

          On the other hand, voting for them anyway if they do something absolutely abhorrent and beyond any kind of humanity tells them they can get away with anything and is just a race to the bottom.

          • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            3 days ago

            They actually expend substantial effort and sums of money to find this out

            And yet here we are, so clearly they’re either drawing the wrong conclusions or they just don’t care. Either way, it’s not an effective strategy.

            voting for them anyway if they do something absolutely abhorrent and beyond any kind of humanity tells them they can get away with anything and is just a race to the bottom.

            Elections don’t care about nominal votes, they only care about margins. Candidates don’t get any extra powers if they win by 1 vote or 1 million. The race is taking place with or without you. You can help the ones moving slower, or resign yourself and your neighbors to the ones moving faster. But protest voting doesn’t stop the race.

            Write your representatives, protest, build dual power, organize your community, engage in direct action, run for local office; these are all productive strategies. Vote for ideal candidates in primaries. But in the actual election, vote strategically against the most abhorrent and least humane candidate, or you’re liable to get them.

            • porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 day ago

              But in the actual election, vote strategically against the most abhorrent and least humane candidate, or you’re liable to get them.

              I understand the appeal of this idea. It makes sense. But bear with me for a minute. Imagine a world where the democratic party really was as bad as the republican party, except they would give one grain of rice more to one prisoner in the concentration camp. Would you vote for that party? Do you have a line at all beyond which you wouldn’t vote for someone?

              • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 day ago

                Sure, every grain of rice helps. If polling indicates that they are the only two parties with a chance of winning, voting for anyone else serves no purpose.

                Obviously this would highlight the need to take actions outside voting, but what’s the point of wasting a vote doing nothing, even if all you get is a single grain of rice?

                • porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 day ago

                  Alright, fair enough I guess. I used to think this way too, but I changed my mind about it. I don’t think that voting is actually value neutral, but rather affirmative consent for what the people you vote for then go on to do. There are practical aspects to it - I think it sucks the energy out of taking other actions outside of voting, and gives the winner of the election legitimacy in the eyes of normal people who are kind of checked out - but beyond that I think it morally ties you to the program of the party you voted for. I don’t think someone has to be perfect to be able to vote for them, but there is a line beyond which it is too far. After that, the only thing left to do is to take actions outside voting and not get distracted by the circus.

                  • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    22 hours ago

                    I disagree. I don’t think it really sucks any energy out of anything else at all, it’s one or two hours every couple years. And I don’t think the handful of people who would otherwise not vote would shift the perception of normal people.

                    Not do I think strategic voting morally ties you to anything. It’s a harm reduction action. You didn’t have to get distracted by the circus, and nothing stops you from taking actions outside voting.