Before Democrats can articulate a more humane foreign policy, they need to reckon with the mortal sin of the genocide in Gaza.

Progressives acknowledging the fact of genocide is a good first step, and it’s useful that Ocasio-Cortez and others have done so — “I think [unconditional aid to Israel] enabled a genocide in Gaza,” she said in Munich — but it is not in and of itself sufficient. Before anyone in the party can move on to selling a post-Biden vision of human-rights-first foreign policy, they must address what accountability for the war criminals in the Biden administration — those who aided, armed, and funded genocide — should look like.

  • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
    2·
    2 days ago

    You are a narcissist because your arguments are utterly self serving. None of them contribute to the candidate actually getting a different outcome in the election. They serve as an analgesic to cope with the fact that you advocate for strategies that explicitly list the election.

    There is no straw man because we’re not talking about magical scenarios that didn’t happen or anything else other than one specific election that happened in 2024.

    I never claimed it could be fixed by this year’s elections (it’s 2026, by the way). I simply acknowledged those things as part of the problem and stated how they can be addressed. It’s obviously longer-term thinking than you seen willing or capable of engaging in. I included it for completeness.

    Ok. Then it’s completely fucking irrelevant and doesn’t belong in this conversation because we’re not talking about anything other than what it was going to take to get a Democrat elected as president in 2024.

    Over 70 million registered voters abstained in 2024. More than either parties received in votes. That’s not simple policy disagreement, that’s the result of a coordinated anti-election cyber campaign, which the kremlin openly admits to doing.

    Americans have always always voted at about the rate we saw in 2024. There is no evidence for any widespread voter fraud. Nothing about the voting in 24 was abnormal. I’ve seen no evidence that anything Russia did was even worth mentioning in 24. I guess if you get all your news from right wing Blue MAGA rags, maybe the narrative is different.

    I do however, know one specific country, Israel, which spent HUNDRED OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, in influencing the US election. Who lobbied Congress and the White House directly, to keep them maintaining a pro genocide position, one deeply unpopular with Democrats, and marginally unpopular with Republicans.

    This is why I call you a narcissist, because the narcissist will only ever believe themselves, not what the people who do the things actually tell them.

    The voters litterally told you what their issue was 11 months before the election. They repeatedly told you the genocide in Gaza was their highest priority. They shut down Columbia campus about it. They organized write in campaign to say they couldn’t support a Democratic candidate for office who supported a genocide. They told you what it was going to take to win the election, and you, the narcissist, decided that what your thoughts and comfort were more important.

    And as far as inferring your intent, you telling me what you think in these comments. You are telling me what you think is important. I’m not making assumptions, I’m listening to the thing you tell me you think are important and explaining to you that in the context of an election, the things you think are important might not be the most important things required to win an election.

    • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
      1·
      2 days ago

      You are a narcissist because your arguments are utterly self serving

      Oh, I thought my opposition to trump was based on concern for the world and the marginalized and underprivileged groups in the US. But if you know me better than I do, then I guess the reason I oppose trump is because I’m a self-serving narcissist? Weird. I would have thought that if that were true, I would have supported trump like all the other self-serving narcissists in America. Hmmm…

      None of them contribute to the candidate actually getting a different outcome in the election

      If people who decided to boycott the vote over Gaza decided instead to get over themselves and their ideological purism, then trump would have lost and the people in Gaza would be faring substantially better than they are now. You continue to gloss over that fact because you need “an analgesic to cope with the fact that you advocate for strategies” that explicitly gave the election to trump.

      Ok. Then it’s completely fucking irrelevant and doesn’t belong in this conversation because we’re not talking about anything other than what it was going to take to get a Democrat elected as president in 2024.

      I included it for the sake of completeness to address the potential counterarguments that “Not every registered voter who abstained was doing so as a boycott over Gaza.” It’s basic intellectual honesty, but if that’s irrelevant to you then we know what sort of position you’re arguing from. So thanks for telling on yourself.

      Americans have always always voted at about the rate we saw in 2024

      False. 2024 had abysmally poor turn-out relative to registered voters.

      There is no evidence for any widespread voter fraud. Nothing about the voting in 24 was abnormal.

      Also false. Elon Musk openly admitted to bragged about interfering with election integrity. The 2024 elections were also never audited, unlike 2020, so if there were anomalies (which some have been identified, particularly in blue districts of swing states), they haven’t been investigated or officially reported.

      I’ve seen no evidence that anything Russia did was even worth mentioning in 24.

      Interfering in western nations’ elections is standard russian foreign policy. They don’t even try to hide it.

      I guess if you get all your news from right wing Blue MAGA rags

      That’s not where I get my news, but good try.

      I do however, know one specific country, Israel, which spent HUNDRED OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, in influencing the US election. Who lobbied Congress and the White House directly, to keep them maintaining a pro genocide position

      Oh yeah, no one is denying that here. Go ahead and ask yourself who Israel was spending all that money to get elected? Doesn’t exactly help your argument.

      This is why I call you a narcissist, because the narcissist will only ever believe themselves, not what the people who do the things actually tell them.

      Again, you still seem to be telling on yourself.

      The voters litterally told you what their issue was 11 months before the election. […] and you, the narcissist, decided that what your thoughts and comfort were more important.

      Do you think I’m the fucking DNC or something? I have my preferences for candidates and policies, but those took a back seat in 2024 to the main effort of preventing a second trump term, which you continue to gloss over as a factor in that election. I’m capable of putting my personal preferences aside for a higher priority like that because, unlike you, I’m not a narcissist.

      And as far as inferring your intent, you telling me what you think in these comments. You are telling me what you think is important.

      Nope. I told you that what I thought was important in 2024 was making sure trump didn’t get elected. You assumed everything else about my position.

      Beyond my opposition to trump, I haven’t mentioned my personal opinions because those aren’t what matter. If you really want to know, I’m a leftist, but not the kind that unthinkingly follows whatever the puristic campism of your average tankie circlejerk tells you to believe.

      I believe in socialist fiscal policy, as well as a legal system based on restorative justice a la Rawls and Sen, and a political system based on direct democracy, regional autonomy, and a constitutional rules-based order to preserve sovereignty while encouraging multilateral cooperation and ensuring respect for human rights. But all that is as good as the paper it’s written on. I also recognize the complexities of realpolitik and can subordinate my personal ideology to the pragmatism of a feasible political strategy in favor of incremental progress through gradual change; and at times, harm reduction and damage control. Because nothing is going to become perfect overnight, and everything depends on the changing tides of public sentiment and shifting political tailwinds.

      More relevant to this conversation, I think Israel’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank are atrocious, and world leaders need to take a hardline stance against it, but I recognize that that won’t be possible under trump.

      So there. Now you no longer need to assume more than you actually know.