- cross-posted to:
- fediverse@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- fediverse@lemmy.world
It became the only reliable source of information I had. People posted links with a minimal amount of commentary, picking and choosing the best content from other social media networks. They’re not doing it to “build a brand” because that’s not a thing in the Fediverse. It’s too disjointed to be a place to build a newsletter subscription base.
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the only problem is the lack of niche from like in some reddit subs, not main subs, and people there are unlikely to migrate here. plus the bots therer drum all the engagement to get people interested. when an instance vanishes it takes the content with them and i dint see the last one recover from it.
It takes very little effort to open and run a community here, be the change you want to see. :)
I disagree. It’s easy if you want to use a community as your personal blog without any interaction from others. It’s hard to get an actual community running.
i love lemmy for what it is now. it sadly doesn’t have some communities as active here as reddit may, like stuff for soccer in particular for me, but it’s solid for everything else
To me it feels like Reddit mini
I’m having a blast here.
Not only because it gives you the content that you choose. And there’s no shorts, no ads, …no superfluous bs (god I hate fb, I fucking loathe it).
But also, everything is within reach. The options are within the options. Done.
I am having a great time exploring the Fediverse and of course having a blast here in Lemmy. That said I have found a lot of limitations as well that makes the Fediverse work “for real” when you want to go in deep into the federation part of it. For example I was really trying to move away from instagram and I wanted to create my own instance of Pixel fed. The expectation is that I have my own instance in the fediverse I can own and I can connect to the rest of the network. The reality is that from your little bubble you can’t see old posts from accounts on other servers. Only new ones. Which does not really make it work for real. There are plenty of other use cases that work better, but assuming that’s the “only way” and it’s perfect is not being fully honest. A lot of people like to shit on ATproto, but it’s a protocol that feels less extreme on federation and more friendly on the “normal person” usability part of it. Every person have their own needs in the end.
It’s also one of the most nitpicky whiny places you can visit. A new open source software/update just got released and it does something cool! “Well it’s not {x} compliant so it’s trash.” Or “If a solo developer or a team decides to use ‘AI’ then their entire project is AI slop.”
There are so many moments where I’m like “just shut the fuck up and enjoy the software/news/updates these strangers are providing for free.”
It’s full of leftist purity testing, that’s for sure. And, you can’t say certain things even if they are actually true.
i block tankie instances, and tankie posts.
Yeah fuck that. I’d rather everyone just be themselves.
Felt.
Amen!
And the eight and final rule of fediverse, if this is your first time discussing linux distros, you have to fight.
HAHA! THEY’VE BEEN BAMBOOZLED! HOISTED! WHAT BUFFOONS!
I really would like to somehow convince more people to adopt the idea that, like, Facebook and friends are run by bad people and you can choose not to use their products. Just stop. Find another way. Be uncomfortable for a little while.
But people aren’t up to the challenge.
I also wish they would, but ive realized a lot of people have no self control or discipline. I guess I do because of some challanges during my life. But for most people, its difficult to even stop eating unhealthy food, and thats not even difficult. :)
But for most people, its difficult to even stop eating unhealthy food, and thats not even difficult.
It is if you are poor. Healthy food costs more than junk, in the short-term.
Ah yes, didnt think about that. I dont blame any poor people for doing what they need to survive. I would steal food and do what is required if I needed to.
That’s not even difficult? Get out more, man.
I dont think its difficult. Nobody has a gun to my head forcing me to do it.
Difficult things in life are things like being permanently sick, disabled, being poor, being ugly, being bullied, being with a toxic partner, having a toxic boss etc.
But not eating unhealthy food, thats not difficult. Unless you are poor, like someone said above. Then its difficult because you cant choose something else.
People are fucking addicted to instagram and I’m the annoying “get rid of that shit” preacher to everyone I can. My gf has reduced her usage, but still checks it from time to time.
I always ask “Do you really need to use it?” - and almost always, their answer is “not really, but it’s the only place I can find X”. Some of my gf’s friends use it to find new places to go. Some of my boardgaming friends still use it, mostly to “know what events are coming up” or what new games are being released.
Instagram is essentially this age’s yellow pages of a telephone list, small businesses are super dependent on it and they’re forced to post fucking stories everyday or get erased by the algorithm
It’s one of those self fueling problems. Businesses post on Instagram because people go there, and people go there in part because that’s where they found out about businesses doing stuff.
Better options are possible, but the big money is backing this hell. Less money to be made from RSS feeds , web rings, and email newsletters.
I don’t use any social media other than this. I find out about bands I like playing from their email lists or bandsintown. I’m on a couple “things happening in the city” email newsletters. It doesn’t demand my attention.
I wouldn’t say it’s “not up to the challenge” insomuch that like when you want to convince someone to not use Chrome, you’re running into the problem that you have to create a framework under which the amount of problem Chrome can be can actually be measured/registered.
People always assume “Yeah but the average user doesn’t care”, but never truly read that line and realize what it implies.
It’s not that my mum opens Chrome, sees that it’s 74/100 on the problematic-software-you-shouldn’t-use-scale, and then decided to use it anyways.
She opens it. That’s it. It ends there.There is no “This is a 74/100 problem”.
There is no problematic-software-you-shouldn’t-use-scale.
There is no scale.
There isn’t even the conceptual idea for it, and hence no reason or impetus to ever internally have such a scale.And now comes an important question: Why? Or rather, why not?
And the answer is both easier and also impossibly harder than most of us trying to convince others would want to accept: Because it doesn’t matter.
To my mum, she couldn’t give a flying fuck what others think about Chrome, she wants to open a web page. She has actual problems in her actual life, she doesn’t care a rat’s arse what the tiny computer she looks up the weather and contacts her kids on does to allow her to do that internally. She’s worried about her health, about her colon surgery healing or about her mum (my grandma is 93) having fallen down.
FYI, I’m doing it to build a brand.
my voyager has counted badly few updoots to you for that!
Now please subscribe to my newsletter!
The tickets for Fediretreat are selling fast. Grab yours now!
I’m so hyped for fedipalooza
Fedi Wap as Headliner?
Wet ass piefed?
Your ideas intrigue me.
Beans company?
And it has not enough users. If the fediverse ever became popular enough to hold significant marketshare, we’d see similar issues. The upside to the frdiverse is that you can defederate from misinformation peddlers.
Fediverse doesn’t (as of yet) have a monetization path because of it’s “self hosted” structure - I put it in quotes because most people use large instances, but anyone can spin up their own and federate.
The big risk with this is that if it reaches a critical mass where advertisers see potential for profit, the mechanism that would be most convenient, especially with LLMs, is bots.
Say Toyota wants to promote their new car. They contract an advertising agency, who spins up a few dozen LLM agents trained on Lemmy data and instructions to talk up the latest new car. It might make posts, or just comments, but in all cases it will eventually promote that product.
All that for the cost of a few tokens, and the only giveaway would be the “AI phrasing”, if anyone catches it.
That’s already happening. Bots are posting from open instances, and malicious instances are manipulating votes.
The best solution I see is allowlisting servers you want to federate with.
So here is a stupid question
What exactly is the fediverse? What’s included in it? I’ve hear much about fediverse and Lemmy, but is Lemmy part of it or not? Are other systems like Blue sky a part of it or not? Do I transparently see posts from all those different systems?
What exactly is the fediverse?
Servers that can federate over ActivityPub protocol. Any server that uses ActivityPub can be considered part of the fediverse.
What’s included in it?
Clones of corporate owned sites: twitter (mastodon, misskey), tumblr (wafrn), reddit (lemmy, piefed), facebook (friendica), plus others
I’ve hear much about fediverse and Lemmy, but is Lemmy part of it or not?
Yes, it is
Are other systems like Blue sky a part of it or not?
Bluesky isn’t, since they use a different protocol, but it’s possible to bridge and interact with it. Wafrn does it.
Do I transparently see posts from all those different systems?
This is the biggest “it depends” situation. For instance, by default, lemmy ignores most posts from mastodon and similars. However, mastodon users can post to lemmy communities if they use the proper
, but they cannot specify a title - their post body will also double as the title. They can also reply to comments, they’re easy to spot because they always have an@userwhen replying.Some server types integrate the different things better than others. Friendica and Wafrn seem to be the best for “variety integration”.
Not a stupid question at all. Loosely, I think, it’s any site that trades information using the ActivityPub protocol. Because they use the same underlying protocol, they can easily trade content/posts with each other and yes, Lemmy is part of the Fediverse for that reason.
This is also why you can see posts from lemmy.ca or piefed.social or whatever.domain users while browsing lemmy.world - anyone who sets up a site with the Lemmy software can participate in the network and trade posts with all the others - these are individually called instances. These sites can decide that they don’t want to trade posts with certain other sites (ie: trolls set up a farm on their own instance) and exclude them from their users being able to see them, this is called defederation.
In theory, a Mastodon instance could see content from a Lemmy instance (and Pixelfed and Loops and so on) as they all use the same underlying protocol to trade information, but in practice, it seems that sites basically stick to trading with other sites in their wheelhouse.
BlueSky also started with ActivityPub but I believe they did something to their software to make it proprietary.
The usefulness of all this is: no member site can get a monopoly on content. The largest Lemmy site is lemmy.world and I have an account on there. I switched to dbzer0 because I disagreed with some of the actions taken by lemmy.world (they defederated from some content that I wanted to see) so I came over here and now I can see that content.
Anyway, that’s my understanding of it.
BlueSky also started with ActivityPub but I believe they did something to their software to make it proprietary.
Friendly correction: BlueSky tried to use AP(ActivityPub) but they had problems with it (like user migrations). So they made their own protocol called the AT Protocol (Authenticated Transfer). ATProto is also an open protocol like AP and they are currently working to get it standardised: https://atproto.com/blog/kicking-off-the-atp-working-group
All software BlueSky uses is open source and self-hostable and already a bunch of different implementations have started to pop up independently. Sadly BlueSky still has the vast majority of users (like 90%) using their infrastructure.
While I don’t like BlueSky as a company, the software they are using is open.
All software BlueSky uses is open source and self-hostable and already a bunch of different implementations have started to pop up independently.
Oh that’s cool. So where can I sign up to interact with BlueSky users if I don’t want to sign up to BlueSky?
Here is eurosky: https://portal.eurosky.tech/
Here is blacksky: https://blacksky.app/
Here is bookhive (a lot smaller): https://bookhive.social/I found all of them by looking through the PDS index: https://atproto.at/pdses and selecting ones with enough users to signify open registration.
Here is a guide to self-hosting: https://atproto.com/guides/self-hosting#pds
All of these are links to PDS servers. These are the servers that contain all of your data. You can log into any ATProto apps using these accounts.
In theory, a Mastodon instance could see content from a Lemmy instance (and Pixelfed and Loops and so on) as they all use the same underlying protocol to trade information, but in practice, it seems that sites basically stick to trading with other sites in their wheelhouse.
Whenever you see somebody linking to the user they’re replying to at the beginning of their comment, you’re likely seeing somebody posting from Mastodon because their UI is user-feed-oriented instead of thread-oriented.
Interesting, that never occurred to me. I said that about the wheelhouse because I have a Mastodon account I read from time to time and I can’t recall ever seeing any Lemmy content show in my feed. I never did Twitter though so I’m kind of lost, it might be I just don’t know what I’m doing. I followed like 40 hashtags but I still don’t get a huge amount of content.
@HAL_9_TRILLION @grue It looks like this! I looked up the comment URL on my mastodon account, which enabled me to reply from there.
The fediverse is the overarching architecture. So lemmy is part of the fediverse. It is a federated collection of servers that are somewhat independent, but still part of the system. I’m going to make a very poor analogy, but think of it like your spice cabinet. The individual spices are instances while the cabinet itself is the fediverse. Or at least that’s my understanding of it. If I’m mistaken, please someone enlighten me.
You asked five questions, none of them are stupid.
What exactly is the fediverse? What’s included in it.
I have heard two definitions in use. The first is narrower, it refers to the collection of servers running compatible Reddit-alike software including Lemmy, Mbin and Piefed which are pretty much 1 to 1 compatible and communicating with users on one from another is more or less seamless. The big, distributed Reddit alternative that allows you to post from lemmy.ca onto lemmy.world and me to read it from sh.itjust.works.
The second is the broader, simpler definition of “anything that runs on the ActivityPub protocol and is federated with something else.” Which includes all of the above plus the likes of Peertube, Mastodon, Pixelfed, Loops etc. They are technically cross-compatible, I’ll get to that later.
Is Lemmy part of it or not?
Yes it is, Lemmy runs on ActivityPub.
Are other systems like Bluesky part of it or not?
Some are, some aren’t. A few examples:
- BlueSky. Not part of the Fediverse, it uses a different protocol, their own thing. It is sort of designed to federate but not really in practice.
- Diaspora. Similar concept of federated social media, but not compatible with ActivityPub. The Coke to our Pepsi.
- Truth Social. It is my understanding that The Church Of Trump is basically a fork of Mastodon. They don’t federate though, they turn that feature off thank a long list of random deities and WWE wrestlers.
- Threads. Meta/Facebook’s Twitter clone. IS part of the Fediverse, it uses ActivityPub and has federation turned on, though a lot of instances defederate with them on principle. You can interact with Threads from a Lemmy instance. …If it still exists. Is Threads still a thing?
Do I transparently see posts from all those different systems?
Yes and no. You can kind of think of the Fediverse like the Universe itself in that there’s nowhere you can stand and see the entire thing. You and I are from neighboring star systems in the same galaxy, we’re both on servers running Lemmy, so we can communicate completely seamlessly. I see a comment immediately above you from someone on piefed.social, they’re on a server running Piefed, not Lemmy. That’s another Reddit-alike, they can communicate with us pretty easily. You might occasionally see someone on Mastodon chime in. You can usually spot this because they @ the users they’re replying to. It would be really cool if a Mastodon user could reply to this message to demonstrate. As you get farther afield, it kinda stops working. It’s difficult to interact with Peertube from Lemmy, for example. I have commented on a Peertube video from a Pixelfed account though.
I mean, over in Twitterlike fedi it’s called “the fediverse” there, too!
– Frost
Wow. I had to stop reading this one. Long on words, poor on writing and spelling and neither circling a theme so much as just edgelording on everything social, I’m not sure whether it was ever getting somewhere.
But life’s too short for 6000 words on The Things That Suck With Stuff I Don’t Use.
Weird I thought the fediverse was mostly delusional leftists talking about how great life is in North Korea, China and Russia and how bad the imperial west is.
Weird. It’s mostly techie nerds. Not all lefties are communists.
Lemmy is a small part of the fediverse and the tankie triad is a small part of Lemmy. Barely ever seen that stuff on Mastodon and co.
Not at all but you will encounter a lot of gays and shit
And furries! 🐺
People complain about Lemmy having limited content and engagement. Not in this article so much. I’m sure there were fewer posts in the past too. But what I found is that there are real people on here and you don’t have to wade through bots and shills which makes this community feel much more whole to me.
I actually like the slower pace. There’s no constant stream of content but I find that helps me to moderate my usage. It also helps me take a more active role because I don’t just see what I’m subscribed to. I’ll hop over to the top posts over the last 6 hours and find something that’s really hot elsewhere, or I’ll hop on to scaled and find something obscure. It’s slower and cranky but it embodies a lot of the old elements of scrolling that I miss.
People complain about Lemmy having limited content and engagement.
I do. And that’s also why if you consciously choose Lemmy as your first line of internet discussion, I encourage you to help build a critical mass to sustain your particular niche or topic.
i see people going back to reddit, assuming they dint get shadowbanned, if content disappears.
While that’s true, I don’t believe it to be a fundamental property of the medium or federation in general. I think what we are experiencing is the result of lack of mainstream attention and traffic.
The people here are much less demographically diverse than the public at large, and have intentionally sought out this space and others like it, so they have more of a sense of ownership and community about it. The more attention it gets, the more the demographics will change to reflect the broader public, and the more it will become like a public space, complete with all the ills that come with that, like advertisers vying for attention, shills posing as enthusiasts, and influencers saying what will get them the most followers, rather than what they think.
I believe it would take extensive moderation and amazing tools to keep places like this the same as they gain users. I haven’t ever seen a community survive that kind of growth and retain its original spirit, but I also haven’t seen one with no profit motive. If we can get the moderation tools where they need to be, there could be hope!
Also, there is no central power that has to make the line go up. I remember reddit like before 2014 and that was much like here in many ways (in an older kind of way, more racism and smut), but they just had to shoehorn in moar users more and more and more, and forbid any troublesome subs (while leaving other troublesome ones ofc.).
So IMO there is a real difference, we cannot grow too big or we’d just split off into new entities.
While Lemmy lacks those, PieFed already has both advanced automated mod tools plus other features that dramatically increases the democratization of moderation itself.
e.g. if someone wants to see less Trump and Musk content, keyword filters allow someone to personally set that up, without having to rely upon a moderator to make that decision for the entire community.
Another example along those lines is the automated collapsing or even hiding of content that falls below a certain score threshold - personally I have that turned off, but if someone wants that then again, they don’t have to rely solely upon the efforts of a moderation team, and can rely instead upon the community engagement. Again: if they want.
Still another example is showing icons next to usernames - e.g. one shows new users that are <2 weeks old, another shows someone who receives ~10x more downvotes than upvotes, and so on. These are not “filters”, just helpful indicators so that you know more about someone’s reputation prior to responding. Most conservatives for example have warning labels next to their usernames, in these more leftist spaces.
Also - and I cannot emphasize enough how crucial this is - PieFed moderator reports actually federate. This has been a source of huge pain in Lemmy, and tbf I think a future Lemmy release is planned that will do that… but meanwhile as with so exceedingly very many other features, PieFed has had them for months.
PieFed thereby helps avoid some of the major issues that cause community fragmentation. Which ironically PieFed also helps solves that issue too, by collapsing comments (old example of this phenomena), and with the Categories of Communities suite of features, including the user-customizeable and shareable Feeds.
Also PieFed is easier to install, requires less maintenance, uses fewer resources (even sending 25-fold less data to end-users), and so on. So yeah, I don’t think Lemmy is capable of scaling up, despite its reliance upon its sourcecode being in the hyper stable Rust programming language, because of all the other issues with it (database issues requiring constant restarts, and especially lack of moderation capabilities), so I am putting all of my hopes into PieFed. Sorry if this reads like an advertisement - I feel like PieFed is to Lemmy what Lemmy is to Reddit, except that analogy does not begin to come close since PieFed has added features that even Reddit never bothered to, plus some others that it continually tried to take away from people by not retaining it in new-reddit despite how it was present in old.
I think even if shills, bots and influencers gain traction in the fediverse, it’s still better than reddit or Instagram because of federation. There won’t be one corporation algorithmically feeding you ads. You can curate your experience more than you can on another platform.
I think the community is a good size right now. Popular enough that we guarantee getting any content of relevance I care about, but not popular enough to have all the problems you mentioned. I hope the community stays this size and off the radar indefinitely.
True, Lemmy feels this way almost exclusively because it’s small and hasn’t been noticed by mainstream media enough. The second that changes this place will become what reddit was pre-ipo.
My hope is that it will always be a little too disjointed to hold that kind of attention for long.
There is no effective way to ban a person. As long as that remains true, moderation tools don’t really matter.
Israel alone is putting $760 million into propaganda. Lemmy may not be big, but it’s worth 0.2% of that budget.
And that’s just Israel.
I think that’s trying to solve the wrong problem.
If I had awesome moderating tools, identifying and deleting comments that violate the policy would be effortless. I would not need to ban a person, which as you aptly point out, can reappear forever. But, I can ban all of his violating comments, which are, after all, the true target and violation, not the commenter.
israel is pretty new on the scene, only after '23 they significantly increased thier propaganda funding, russia still beats them with billions per year on propaganda, of course its not limited to just social media.
unless you enter .ml environment…
Or hexbear, Lemmygrad.ml, hilariouschaos, and [edit: false stuff removed] maga.place.
Lemmy definitely has its dark corners.
lemmytoday isnt conservative, i havnt even noticed one, most of the actual conservatives have largely been defederate long time ago. also they wouldnt survive on a small platform anyways, because of how little interactions they get.
Thank you for correcting me. I edited my comment to indicate that it was maga.place.
I really do not understand all the .ml hate. If you have it so much why are you using their technology (Lemmy)? So much bullshit being reposted as fact. Basically echo chamber brigading. I left Reddit to escape this shit…
Edit: although judging by your post history you lack conviction and joke about everything, so maybe I missed the mark
Of you hate it so much, why are you using their technology?
Oh boy, this isn’t a question you want being asked of people (yourself included).
Really reeks of “if you hate capitalism why do you participate in it?”
That’s why I’m advocating for people to switch to piefed and stop donating to the lemmy project which funds .ml.
That’s why
Which is? I’m still missing something here.
I really do not understand all the .ml hate. If you have it so much why are you using their technology (Lemmy)?
Piefed is a derivative of Lemmy. So you’re not getting away from it.
And Lemmy is a derivative of Reddit so by your logic you haven’t escaped from it.
Unfortunately the “attitude” system makes Piefed unusable.
Whats the “attitude” system?
PieFed keeps track of how many upvotes and downvotes you give, displays that on your profile and if you downvote too much it takes away your downvote button. That happened to me after a weekend of use. This is Lemmy. There’s a lot here that needs downvoting.
Are you downvoting to disagree or are you downvoting because it’s not contributing to the conversation?
Agree, this seems completely toxic and ripe for abuse.
Yeah, there’s definitely still some bullshit and editorialized clickbaity headlines to sift through, but it’s not nearly as much and overall the content here feels much more human.
There’s just not much incentive to generate engagement for the sake of it (unless you’re funhole), and far fewer bots and bad-faith trolls in general. Not to say there’s none though.
Lemmy as far as I can tell is mostly dup posts and blind links, especially links to youtube. The absence of Spez is of course priceless, but otherwise Lemmy is duller than plenty of single-issue blogs or forums, or even the still-decaying corpse of Usenet. That article is about Mastodon, which has a different crowd than Lemmy does. I’m not big on the “follower” model though, so I’m not there very much.
As soon as there is “unlimited” content, the vast majority of said content is shit
Even better.
Most instances have human moderation, gating for bots, and yes, and you actually have to take 5-10 minutes to figure out how it all works, so the stupid people are automatically excluded by sheer complexity.
I fucking love Mastodon.
That’s not the problem. The problem is how fucking slow it is. It has such few users, I see the same post in the early am as the late pm. IRL I’m an introvert, but online I’m a social fucking butterfly, and I need to give and receive attention. Also, you are highly overestimating yourself if you think dumb people can figure this out, because I’m dumb af
Plenty of stupid people in the fediverse so I dont think we will win any prices for that, guys. And plenty of people who think they are smarter than average, and zero people who think they are dumber than average. The usual stuff.
I know you probably didn’t mean this, but I don’t think accessibility barriers are good. Diversity of thought is strength and bad comments naturally sink to the bottom.
After seeing how many terrorist ideologies have been allowed to thrive by claiming First Amendment protection since 2016.
No.
“Diversity of thought” my ass. I’m sure your wonderfully-diverse thoughts are just what all of us need to hear, but if they can’t pass muster under human moderation, they’re not worth platforming.
Pretending these comments only come from “stupid” people is abelist and provably false.
I am defending those with barriers, not fascists.
Turning to authorities to suppress fascism doesn’t seem practical. We need to cultivate good democratic systems and education systems that create citizens capable of thinking critically and turning down bad ideologies on their own. Citizens should be empowered, not coddled.
LOL
Referring to self-hosting, human moderators as “authorities” is hilarious.
I remember when, here in Missouri, the people wanted to regulate predatory payday lenders. Those opposed called their fucking organizations “Such and Such for Equal Credit Access”. Sounds nice right? Almost like the term “Diversity of Thought”.
What you refer to as “empowerment”, I refer to as a cancer. It needs to be cut out, like they did back in the day on Cable Street.
If you feel so disempowered, go have a conversation with Grok. He’ll make you feel super special.
Apologies, I think we are talking past each other. I think I misunderstood your initial comment. It read like a suggestion that lemmy’s more extreme communities were terroristic and a criticism of the first amendment, which suggested that you believe the government should be allowed to dictate what kind of speech is or isn’t acceptable – in particular on these little platforms. My comment was in response to that notion.
Re-reading it with your second comment, I think you’re saying that “terrorist ideologies” have been allowed to develop on conventional social-media by claiming first amendment protections in order to not moderate communities, and 2016 was not in reference to early lemmy but to the MAGA movement. That makes more sense, and I generally agree that conventional social-media follows irresponsible stewardship practices.
Stupid people can just use AI, so nothing is truly barred, not like it requires more than a 3rd grade reading level either. Your post being upvoted this much shows how easy it is for the average NPC to make an account.
See I had forgotten the one golden rule of capitalism. To thrive in capitalism one must be amoral. Now you can be wildly sickeningly successful with morals but you cannot reach that absolute zenith of shareholder value. Either you accept a lower share price and don’t commit atrocities or you become evil. There is no third option.
Spot on.
