There is a hunger for bold, transformative politics in the United States right now. Zohran Mamdani shows how the Left can run on a principled, disciplined message that speaks to voters’ lived concerns — and win.
You’re going to fling that a high-profile and well-recognized (even amongst non-politically engaged voters) organization gave recognition and resources to a third party in a local (not even gubernatorial but) mayoral election as a counter defense for voting for a third party in a presidential election?
I mean, I’m not even arguing one way or the other. When people argue against voting for a third party in a presidential election, it’s on the basis that the candidate has absolutely no shot at winning and, at best, will split the vote.
It has nothing to do with liking or not liking hypocrisy; the basis of their argument is entirely about whether a strategy is viable, not whether they felt good about the decision.
I assumed that the OP was actually trying to poke holes in the argument but arguing that the Democratic party has backed a third-party candidate in a local election doesn’t negate any of the actual points regarding dissuading voting for a third-party candidate who is without the same resources and does not have the same kind of outreach (such as appearing in debates, etc.) in a presidential election. That’s why, notably, OP had to specify a presidential election: people don’t, generally, argue against voting for third parties at the local level because the visibility of those candidates winning is entirely different.
Do you get what I mean? It wholly doesn’t engage with the actual reasoning or evidence for the argument so it…wouldn’t mean anything, if you did try to use it as a rebuttal.
I get that you’re talking out of your ass making excuses and trying to justify random decisions you’ve made to kiss copirate dems asses, why you repeat the corporate media talking points I can’t explain but you clearly are just a parrot and not thinking it through
justify random decisions you’ve made to kiss copirate dems asses
Damn; that’s…really impressive to’ve gleaned all of this insight about my past decisions on a comment that has mentioned none of my past decisions. You’ve got nothing on Miss Cleo.
Would you care to explain what corporate media talking points I’m reiterating?
Also, I’ve not been remotely as aggressive or attacking to anyone here; you’re acting like I’m encouraging people to vote for Cuomo or Adams. I have not given this level of hostility or assumption of poor character out the gate like this, remotely.
I’m not mad or upset with you or anything I promise
O. K. That’s fair enough; “talking out of your ass” and “kiss copirate dems asses” felt more angry than anything but maybe that’s just because “ass” was being used.
I feel like the points I’ve mentioned I’ve gotten the reasoning for more from political scientists (as I don’t really care about the positions of the media or the corporate Dem.s) but it was never my intent to convince anyone of them; I was trying to explain why, if the Dem.s did back Cuomo, it wouldn’t address the reasoning of someone who believes not voting third party in a presidential election (an attempt to understand the building blocks of that person’s PoV, even if one thinks that PoV is garbage). It may just be how my brain works but understanding the mechanics of someone’s reasoning, even if one would never agree with the conclusion, I find beneficial. Potentially because it helps to break apart their argument in a way they’d understand (though, of course, it can be hard to convince some people to change their minds).
But it’s definitely not the most important thing here, in the end. The progressive (and exceedingly) better candidate won the nomination; (since I think that’s something we both agree on wanting to have happened) I’m entirely much more enthusiastic about that outcome than anything else discussed in the thread.
It seems I’m not able to break down the core basics of the underlying mechanics well enough so we’ll probably have to end the conversation but, just in case I’m still being avoidably unclear, I’ll try to summarize as barebones as possible:
it’s about resources.
More resources behind a candidate materially changes that candidates viability; unless you can explain how a progressive candidate in this scenario invalidates the resources and reach that’s actually of concern when weighing whether a candidate can succeed, you – likewise – are opting to ignore the details of the reasoning and not actually address them.
P. S.
I’m not someone who prefers centrist or even left-of-center candidates; if I lived in NY, I’d definitely be voting for Mamdani and most certainly not Cuomo.
It’s weird to be like, “His progressivism makes the difference,” as though I’m hoping the party backs Cuomo or Adams and would rapidly vote third party in this case.
It’s weird to be like, “His progressivism makes the difference,” as though I’m hoping the party backs Cuomo or Adams and would rapidly vote third party in this case.
It’s honest. Voting 3rd party is literally voting for the worst candidate, in all cases unless there’s a progressive as the party’s nominee, in which case it doesn’t matter.
I’m sick of the double standards and I don’t buy the excuses for them.
Voting 3rd party is literally voting for the worst candidate, in all cases unless there’s a progressive as the party’s nominee, in which case it doesn’t matter.
See, this is why it feels like your responses are wholly detached from anything I’m actually saying.
I explicitly said that people who make these arguments don’t advocate against third party votes in local elections (because the viability/feasibility dynamics of a smaller population are different) and I thought it was clear to extrapolate from the underlying reasoning (but perhaps I was mistaken) that voting for a third party presidential nominee who’s been backed by, say, the Democratic party because they opted to not back the winner of their primary during a presidential election (which I didn’t mention as it feels highly unlikely, ever, but it’s the same premise) would make sense because that candidate would then have the name recognition, reach, and resources necessary to reach a populace as large as the entire nation.
Objectively, you’re directly contradicting what I’ve said the reasoning of the argument is, even when I’ve pointed out it argues the opposite.
…you mean the material differences between two different scenarios?
I’ve already said that the backing of a powerful organization in different election series would render the same advantages and chance of winning – regardless of the candidates political positions (and that I wanted Mamdani to win! I’m not even arguing to not vote for him; I think every New Yorker should) – so this is literally you just insisting that, no, really the reasoning would be different if Mamdani ran as a third party and the Democratic party endorsed him. Then I’d say the reasoning was different and you should vote for the guy who won the primary.
Which, like, if you’re going to assume I’m secretly lying, why even bother to have responded in the first place?
You’re going to fling that a high-profile and well-recognized (even amongst non-politically engaged voters) organization gave recognition and resources to a third party in a local (not even gubernatorial but) mayoral election as a counter defense for voting for a third party in a presidential election?
If they do it against a progressive after making a huge deal about not doing it against a centrist? You may like that level of rank hypocrisy.
I mean, I’m not even arguing one way or the other. When people argue against voting for a third party in a presidential election, it’s on the basis that the candidate has absolutely no shot at winning and, at best, will split the vote.
It has nothing to do with liking or not liking hypocrisy; the basis of their argument is entirely about whether a strategy is viable, not whether they felt good about the decision.
I assumed that the OP was actually trying to poke holes in the argument but arguing that the Democratic party has backed a third-party candidate in a local election doesn’t negate any of the actual points regarding dissuading voting for a third-party candidate who is without the same resources and does not have the same kind of outreach (such as appearing in debates, etc.) in a presidential election. That’s why, notably, OP had to specify a presidential election: people don’t, generally, argue against voting for third parties at the local level because the visibility of those candidates winning is entirely different.
Do you get what I mean? It wholly doesn’t engage with the actual reasoning or evidence for the argument so it…wouldn’t mean anything, if you did try to use it as a rebuttal.
I get that you’re talking out of your ass making excuses and trying to justify random decisions you’ve made to kiss copirate dems asses, why you repeat the corporate media talking points I can’t explain but you clearly are just a parrot and not thinking it through
Damn; that’s…really impressive to’ve gleaned all of this insight about my past decisions on a comment that has mentioned none of my past decisions. You’ve got nothing on Miss Cleo.
Would you care to explain what corporate media talking points I’m reiterating?
Also, I’ve not been remotely as aggressive or attacking to anyone here; you’re acting like I’m encouraging people to vote for Cuomo or Adams. I have not given this level of hostility or assumption of poor character out the gate like this, remotely.
You’re going to need a backhoe upgrade if you’re going to keep moving your goalposts like that.
I genuinely don’t believe I’ve moved the goalposts, especially as I didn’t argue anyone new in my last post.
Would you be able to explain to me how I moved them so I can better understand what you’re seeing?
I can see that you’re attempting to be “neutral” but you’re using the same talking points in this thread as the corpo dems and media…
I’m not mad or upset with you or anything I promise
O. K. That’s fair enough; “talking out of your ass” and “kiss copirate dems asses” felt more angry than anything but maybe that’s just because “ass” was being used.
I feel like the points I’ve mentioned I’ve gotten the reasoning for more from political scientists (as I don’t really care about the positions of the media or the corporate Dem.s) but it was never my intent to convince anyone of them; I was trying to explain why, if the Dem.s did back Cuomo, it wouldn’t address the reasoning of someone who believes not voting third party in a presidential election (an attempt to understand the building blocks of that person’s PoV, even if one thinks that PoV is garbage). It may just be how my brain works but understanding the mechanics of someone’s reasoning, even if one would never agree with the conclusion, I find beneficial. Potentially because it helps to break apart their argument in a way they’d understand (though, of course, it can be hard to convince some people to change their minds).
But it’s definitely not the most important thing here, in the end. The progressive (and exceedingly) better candidate won the nomination; (since I think that’s something we both agree on wanting to have happened) I’m entirely much more enthusiastic about that outcome than anything else discussed in the thread.
Yeah. It’s conveniently different in this case because the nominee is a progressive.
It seems I’m not able to break down the core basics of the underlying mechanics well enough so we’ll probably have to end the conversation but, just in case I’m still being avoidably unclear, I’ll try to summarize as barebones as possible:
it’s about resources.
More resources behind a candidate materially changes that candidates viability; unless you can explain how a progressive candidate in this scenario invalidates the resources and reach that’s actually of concern when weighing whether a candidate can succeed, you – likewise – are opting to ignore the details of the reasoning and not actually address them.
P. S.
I’m not someone who prefers centrist or even left-of-center candidates; if I lived in NY, I’d definitely be voting for Mamdani and most certainly not Cuomo.
It’s weird to be like, “His progressivism makes the difference,” as though I’m hoping the party backs Cuomo or Adams and would rapidly vote third party in this case.
It’s honest. Voting 3rd party is literally voting for the worst candidate, in all cases unless there’s a progressive as the party’s nominee, in which case it doesn’t matter.
I’m sick of the double standards and I don’t buy the excuses for them.
See, this is why it feels like your responses are wholly detached from anything I’m actually saying.
I explicitly said that people who make these arguments don’t advocate against third party votes in local elections (because the viability/feasibility dynamics of a smaller population are different) and I thought it was clear to extrapolate from the underlying reasoning (but perhaps I was mistaken) that voting for a third party presidential nominee who’s been backed by, say, the Democratic party because they opted to not back the winner of their primary during a presidential election (which I didn’t mention as it feels highly unlikely, ever, but it’s the same premise) would make sense because that candidate would then have the name recognition, reach, and resources necessary to reach a populace as large as the entire nation.
Objectively, you’re directly contradicting what I’ve said the reasoning of the argument is, even when I’ve pointed out it argues the opposite.
See, it’s ok to vote 3rd party here. It’s not because the nominee is a progressive, it’s because of this paragraph of excuses.
…you mean the material differences between two different scenarios?
I’ve already said that the backing of a powerful organization in different election series would render the same advantages and chance of winning – regardless of the candidates political positions (and that I wanted Mamdani to win! I’m not even arguing to not vote for him; I think every New Yorker should) – so this is literally you just insisting that, no, really the reasoning would be different if Mamdani ran as a third party and the Democratic party endorsed him. Then I’d say the reasoning was different and you should vote for the guy who won the primary.
Which, like, if you’re going to assume I’m secretly lying, why even bother to have responded in the first place?