Again, I pointed out and fully admitted to the foreign media bias. However there’s a difference between dissecting the validity of reports and wholesale discarding them because of their source. If you do that (like our friend above), you’ve abandoned your unexamined received wisdom for a different flavor of the same.

The number one thing I see on the .ml instance is a total incomprehension of how China operates and is organized domestically. I know multiple close friends who went through a full childhood education and only left as adults. I also know a few who have split experiences, growing up in America + China. I’ve also personally been and have talked to people who’ve lived their whole lives (60+ years) there.

The one common thread: it is truly a different world, especially from a political and media landscape. For the amount of shit Western countries get about whitewashing history and controlling media narrative, the Chinese government has it down to a science.

Here are just a few verifiable examples.

• The Chinese air quality index is vastly inflated vs America’s. I’ve been in a Chinese city with a thicker orange smog haze than I’ve ever seen in America categorized as only light/moderate. Conversely, Chinese visitors have specifically commented on how good America’s AQI is vs the Chinese equivalent.

• China’s lock down of VPNs is already broad and growing faster, you can find dozens of threads like these. I personally struggled with this during my visits (Mullvad failed) and only my friend’s private work VPN had access. A local we were staying with asked to borrow our access because there was no way he could get a working VPN otherwise.

• The Chinese GPS system is a controlled black box and not compatible with the global standard. Your local map provider probably won’t work there unless they feed their data to the Chinese system to align their coordinates.

• The government has multiple official arms of censorship that have no parallel in the west. The imagined censorship of simply taking down every government criticism is naive; the system is careful calibrated and monitored to track and suppress collective action. Though I know many will dismiss the research due to country of origin/funding, I would encourage you to read the findings on this just because it’s really interesting.

• China has restrictions on practicing journalism that are complete outliers from the international norm. These include mandatory registration, ethics requirements (??), education level, and arbitrary restrictions on coverage of events and topics. [As a hint, this is a big reason for the dearth of outsider evidence]

This all builds an environment where the tight domestic control and censorship isn’t just common, but expected. Certain subjects just aren’t taught in schools (for example, Mao’s handling of Tibet). Posts on the Chinese Twitter equivalent dissappear all the time with no fanfare. Current CCP politics isn’t deeply discussed online because there’s no point.

This leads to the disconnect between outsider expectations and the domestic realities. We’re so used to seeing politics, news coverage and debates blasted all over western media that we don’t apply the proper lens to our access to Chinese events.

That’s what I mean when I say I don’t have a dog in the race. You can sometimes make educated deductions between what western media says and the official CCP statements, but completely throwing out all outside sources leaves you in the dark. On a topic like the repression of a minority ethnic group in the obscure outskirts, you’ll never find the clear answer.

My point was to rebuff all these comments saying there’s no way X Y Z could happen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence + where there’s smoke there’s fire.

The problem is you and your strawman will never agree on how much fire there could be when you’re citing CCP press releases and he’s citing 3rd parties and hearsay.

Going to reply in broad strokes here due to length:

Previously: […]

1. Re-read my comment and point out where I definitively endorsed that every single one of those things is happening. I listed what I did as examples of the ways a genocide can manifest outside of mass murder.
2. You’re citing the imperialist genocide definition, look up what Lemkin’s original definition was.
3. Just for fun and as an example of how futile these arguments are: Uyghur birth rate allegedly dropped something like 60% from 2016 - 2019 compared to a fractional drop for the general population. Plenty of sources will say a similar number and how it’s from official records but you’ll refuse to accept them so there’s no acceptable way to prove it

[Salafi terrorists]…

1. Want to be clear I’m not making any political endorsement about the moral standing of any side. Terrorist/freedom fighter, etc…
2. Any violent separatist group has a resentful seed, people don’t blow stuff up solely because some foreign government told them to.
3. Yeah, non-state belligerents are going to get foreign funding, not sure what that has to do with my point.

[Tibetan immolation]

1. More funding talk, more dismissing sources…
2. You can find images of these. I won’t post here because they’re pretty graphic, but that’s concrete evidence in my book. Feel free to equivocate on exact number and intent, but my point was to show that these extreme protests happen.

[border restrictions etc…]

1. Pointing out that a disproportionate amount of the restricted area is in these controversial regions
2. Not all countries require a permit to approach these areas, generally they’ll let you walk through with a regular visa
3. There are accounts of rural villages and obscure rural highways being sporadically restricted. Odd for obvious reasons but again you’ll dismiss and there’s no way for either of us to officially confirm the specific locations 🤷

I’m not here with any specific dog in this race, but it’s clear that these counter arguments come in with a predetermined conclusion and deflect anything that doesn’t fit as a lie. Is there any claim the Chinese government could make that you wouldn’t defend?

It’s not up for argument that this repression has happened in China’s long history, you can check any history book you like (even China’s). The modern difference is careful media control and domestic isolation, which is perfect for creating this exact vague deniability.

…a single instance of a Uyghur being killed

Genocide is more than just killing, it’s the deliberate destruction of a people including its culture and institutions. In fact, the reason you’re so focused on people dying is because imperialist powers felt the need to redefine it to allow their exploitation. Even in its more narrow definition it still includes things like abducting and re-education of children and malicious targeted actions (forced labor, restricted reproduction, relocation, etc…).

China is a massive country, and has always had issues with maintaining control over its more distant and ethnically distinct pockets. This stretches back centuries right up to now. For example: 100+ years of separatism, uprisings and violent incidents in East Turkestan. Or more recently, 160 Tibetans self immolating in protest of government repression since 2009. In this lens, there’s plenty of evidence that could support these accusations.

Meanwhile anyone can visit Xinjiang

This sounds like something people parrot only if they haven’t actually traveled China. For one, Xinjiang is massive. It’s about the size of Iran; 1/6 of China by land area. Saying you can visit it is like saying you could visit somewhere in France + Spain + Germany + Italy.

For two, foreigners require a special permit to visit ~12-15% of China (varying by year). This includes the expected restricted zones (military or government areas), but also the areas along borders (many in Tibet and Xinjiang) and “politically sensitive” areas. There’s no official list published for obvious reasons but they’ll certainly let you know if you’re not welcome.

As a disclaimer for those of you furiously typing whattaboutgaza: Yes that’s a genocide. Yes, many countries have engaged in similar kinds of repression. Yes media will amplify stories that paint rivals in a bad light, no that’s not unique to western media.

The sales aren’t quite apples to apples. Very few WNBA players have the same marketability as a decent NBA player. Clark is a generational talent and the face of the league, but adding up the revenue of a bottom tier NBA roster dwarfs her. For reference, she brings in about 26% (!!!) of all WNBA’s $200M revenue, while the lowest revenue NBA team (the Pelicans) brings in $272M.

You are right that the compensation doesn’t match up however. Clark’s rookie contract is $80k/yr for her $52M contribution compared to (minimum) $1.1M/yr for those Pelicans players contributing $18M.

You: “I don’t think the small team argument holds any water, [lists examples of popular minimalist indie games, argues for cutting scope and following their style]”

Me: “My project, at the modest scale I designed with my resource restrictions, was only possible by using Gen Ai to speed development of some assets”

You: “No you’re wrong, that’s not what I said, you’re a shill, gaslighting, strawman, narrative framing, etc…”

If you’re not defending your argument at all, I’m going to interpret your position as not worth defending.

Right, so everything you said is hot air. If you’re not going to bother defending your position and applying it to a simple non-hypothetical situation then I guess you concede that it’s bunk. Clearly you’re interested enough to repeatedly assert that you’re right, but just saying “gaslighting” and “strawman” isn’t convincing anyone.

It’s not a tool? If I plug it into Blender and get a skeleton of an asset I wouldn’t otherwise be able to make with my resource constraints, that’s not a useful part of the process? Just because it has tradeoffs doesn’t mean it has no applications.

I understand people who argue against it on ethical grounds, but I’ll never understand arguing it always makes everything 100% worse. Telling people “just spend X hours learning to make it” or “just pay someone on fivver” or “restructure your project so you don’t need it” just to protect the sanctity of the artform is thinly veiled elitism.

I’ve personally used Gen AI in projects and found some useful applications. My own personal experience is corporate propoganda? Or am I just a filthy plebeian because I couldn’t dedicate multiple days to learning other tools?

If I followed your advice those projects wouldn’t have been finished. You can scroll up and read your own comments, I was on a shoestring budget and wasn’t willing to cut into other responsibilities or shrink the project into a toy. Or is this just “framing” as you say, when really I shouldn’t have pursued my art at all because I wasn’t willing to risk my paycheck?

These are genuine questions, what should I have done? Why would it have been better to do it another way? I don’t want to make a strawman, I want to know how your pontificating results in anything useful outside of an internet discussion.

Strange to not qualify the last one as theft. If it’s out putting code, it’s from the same kind of training set. If it’s out putting character responses, they’re from that same literary training data.

I’m not perverting any argument, you’re just arguing something completely orthogonal to the point people above are making. We all understand creativity and that having more control and agency in a project is a good thing.

My argument isn’t framing, it’s reality. Time is a resource and the creative process is irrelevant when you’ve got bills to pay. The vast majority of people don’t have the luxury to maintain a passion project, much less the chance to recoup a portion of what they poured into it.

Yes, in a vacuum with no regard for money or other responsibilities, the creative output is better for working through those problems. There are examples of this: Transport Tycoon, Undertale, Stardew Valley, Minecraft, etc… Usually games made in spare time over years by someone with a well paying tech job or game dev experience.

These indie games having success is very much the exception. The growth of the indie scene came from the wide availability of dev tooling and distribution platforms. Cutting out those hurdles massively expanded the pool of people who could now make games, thus we get more gems.

Not everyone needs to use Unreal Engine or Steam, but having them as an option is the only way that many games get made. That doesn’t have any correlation to quality, they can be masterpieces or shovel ware. Gen Ai is the same, it just lowers another barrier of entry.

The choice isn’t “Gen Ai or flop”. The choice is in how you allocate your limited resources to make your project. It could add no value to a small project or be the key to unlocking a larger project. If your goal is to make some money from your efforts, it can be great at adding that veneer of polish that gets eyes on your game. I’m not one to judge someone for that just because lazy people can also do lazy things with it.

You’re certainly free to lovingly craft every byte of a game but that doesn’t automatically make it a better product. You’re describing a creative outlet, not something that needs to appeal to some random customer in the 10s they skim your store page.

Regardless of how important it is to your creative vision, there are some boxes you need to check. Visual texture on an otherwise forgettable wall is that exact case. If you need some background wall art your options are:

• Spend X units of time putting something together. Most likely a poor use of time unless you’re already proficient
• Fundamentally simplify your art style to keep X manageable (your game ends up in the pixel art bin, sales plummet)
• Sacrifice other parts of development to free up X time (content, mechanics and other features suffer)
• Pay somebody else (literally never in the budget for an indie game)
• Gen AI gives something passable in a few minutes

Or everyone could take your advice: if you don’t have the time or money to approach your dream game, don’t even try! In my opinion, more people making their art is a good thing, even if it doesn’t pass everyone’s purity test.

If you’re (rightly) worried about the livelihood of the displaced background artist that’s fine, but complain about the economic system and not the tool.

To be fair, wells and aquaducts are fairly clean ways to get water (read: animals haven’t shit or died in it yet). Rivers and other surface water were as bad as today, if not worse because it was a de facto village sewage system. Water quality issues were also mitigated by a diet very heavy in stews and soups, so less extra hydration was needed.

You don’t nose dive your country and lock up/deport dissenters over chump change, you’re losing more in stability and face (and the more lucrative bribes that come with those) than its worth. Trump’s irrational instability has dropped the dollar value more than any of these donations could cover. The math doesn’t add up.

The payment you’re describing is a tithe; a show of gratitude and servitude. You wouldn’t say a feudal vassal has power over his lord just because the material exchange only goes one way.

I really don’t understand where this idea comes from of a country with the 40th rank GDP having the pull to mastermind politics worldwide. For reference: their revenue is about the same as Apple, whose lobbying sees less success despite being more politically neutral.

The reason they have international support is because it’s convenient and their location + antagonism align with the geopolitics of a large group of states. Isreal is a dog on a leash, what we’re seeing Trump do is give them unprecedented lead to genocide at will.

Letting them go this far and long without tugging their collar back to peace talks is not the historical norm, no matter how hard you point at Biden. Did Biden take direct military action to support them? Has any US president?

This Isreali lobbying is a boogeyman; Isreal could dissolve tomorrow and you would see another antagonist spring up in the region with international backing. People are just uncomfortable with their country being aligned with the bad guys of their own free will.

The UN has always been a veto exercise, nothing useful happens there so why would you expect it? It’s as performative as the US Congress with even fewer results. One side gets to tell their constituents “I voted for a good thing” and the other gets to say they defended their national interests on the global stage.

What would happen if this did pass, Israel just blushes and let’s them through? What’s to stop them from doing this in an agreement separate to the UN? Is Isreal really going to go to war with dozens of countries to stop some aid going through? Is the US going to sink their ships? No shot.

All of these countries are just as fine with the status quo as the USA. They just get to pretend there’s a valid reason for their inaction.

The entire global stage is at fault here, but the buck magically stops at Daddy USA no matter who’s in charge.

Don’t really care about the competition. I care about having cheap access to [X]. If the competition can’t compete, then fuck em. That’s not my problem.

This comment is the American consumer for the last 50 years, next step is complaining about outsourcing jobs and lower quality products with no competition.