Because if you want anything to change, the pressure has got to be applied in the right direction. If people just keep blaming their neighbours, of course no politician will ever feel like they have to do anything to improve things.
If you want anything to change, you need to take effective actions. The consequence politicians face by taking ineffective actions is maybe not winning their race. The consequence our neighbors face by taking ineffective actions is the erosion of their civil rights.
If you actually want to pressure politicians, you do it by contacting them directly to inform them of their failings, they’re not just going to magically know why you didn’t vote or vote third party.
Protest voting doesn’t apply the pressure you think it does.
If you actually want to pressure politicians, you do it by contacting them directly to inform them of their failings
Sure, that’s a thing you should do
they’re not just going to magically know why you didn’t vote or vote third party
They actually expend substantial effort and sums of money to find this out, there’s nothing magical about it.
Protest voting doesn’t apply the pressure you think it does.
On the other hand, voting for them anyway if they do something absolutely abhorrent and beyond any kind of humanity tells them they can get away with anything and is just a race to the bottom.
They actually expend substantial effort and sums of money to find this out
And yet here we are, so clearly they’re either drawing the wrong conclusions or they just don’t care. Either way, it’s not an effective strategy.
voting for them anyway if they do something absolutely abhorrent and beyond any kind of humanity tells them they can get away with anything and is just a race to the bottom.
Elections don’t care about nominal votes, they only care about margins. Candidates don’t get any extra powers if they win by 1 vote or 1 million. The race is taking place with or without you. You can help the ones moving slower, or resign yourself and your neighbors to the ones moving faster. But protest voting doesn’t stop the race.
Write your representatives, protest, build dual power, organize your community, engage in direct action, run for local office; these are all productive strategies. Vote for ideal candidates in primaries. But in the actual election, vote strategically against the most abhorrent and least humane candidate, or you’re liable to get them.
Some of them think that it would have eventually reached this point anyway, if not under this republican administration, then the next one. And there’s a good case for that.
Others think you can’t sign on to far worse atrocities that just happen to be perpetrated elsewhere in the world, no matter what, because you are then personally complicit. Also a valid viewpoint.
The performative cruelty that this administration is practicing is genuinely a new low, it’s true. But the burden of doing something about it was and is on people with institutional power, not random ordinary people. The democrats could easily have won the election and they chose not to, and after the trump team, they are the ones to blame next.
The people that voted for Trump are first to blame. People that didn’t vote are second. It’s that simple. There are reasons why a person may have decided not to vote, but none of them change that fact that not voting was effectively a vote for Trump. I view non voters a small step above Trump voters. They at least have the same level of intelligence and critical thinking skills as one another.
That’s totally fallacious. Not voting is not voting. The only way to arrive at that conclusion is that you think that one specific party is by default entitled to votes, no matter what they do, which is wrong. Politicians have to earn votes. They chose a platform which was not popular and so they lost. And they did that to protect specific interests.
I do get being upset at people who are nominally on your side but decided not to vote. It’s understandable. But in no way are they anywhere near as much to blame as the people who had a more than two billion dollar marketing budget for their political campaign and decided “fuck what the people want”.
With the way our first past the goalposts system works, it’s true. By not voting you’re saying that you’re fine with either outcome.
When one of those options has straight up told you they’ll be a dictator on day one and you’ll never vote again, as well as publishing their playbook on how they’re going to do it, choosing to not vote against them is saying you’re fine with it.
And it’s not like protest voting actually hurt the DNC. It just hurt every vulnerable person in the country.
No it’s fact. Not voting supports the less good candidate 100% of the time in FPtP.
And yes, non voters are more responsible for this than the DNC sending a shit message. If non voters and third party voted Kamala, we wouldn’t have a dictator in the White house right now. The DNC didn’t put him there, voters for Trump and non voters did.
No it’s fact. Not voting supports the less good candidate 100% of the time in FPtP.
What are you talking about? It’s pretty rich to accuse others of lacking critical thinking and then come out with this. Someone who didn’t vote could have equally been someone who didn’t vote for trump. You mean “someone who was going to vote for the democrats but then didn’t”.
The DNC purposefully threw the election. They are the ones with agency here. Each non voter might have gotten them 0.00001% closer to winning. They could have gotten themselves 100% closer.
Just so you know, you’re replying to .ml there. I mean, I agree, but reasoned discussion isn’t going to win out with the leftist leftists that ever lefted.
Yea, I saw that after processing the comment. Still, I want people that may be unaware and read the comment chain to understand the reality. Silence is complacency.
Do third party voters come in between those two options or after “didn’t vote”?
Seriously, it’s all true. It is the fault of Trump Voters, the DNC, 3rd party voters, and non-voters.
Hell, I’ll go one further and say those who do nothing but vote for the most progressive Dem in the primary and then vote for the Dem no matter who it is AND that is all they have ever done to address how terrible the Dem party is, also share in the blame.
This is what you voted for protest-non-voters.
No, this is what the democratic party would still rather have than sending one less bomb to Israel.
So you got this AND bombs for Israel
Yeah, we did, and the people who purposefully threw the election rather than compromise one bit with what the people wanted are responsible.
And yet we are the ones to suffer the consequences. Who cares who’s “responsible”? What matters is who is affected.
Because if you want anything to change, the pressure has got to be applied in the right direction. If people just keep blaming their neighbours, of course no politician will ever feel like they have to do anything to improve things.
If you want anything to change, you need to take effective actions. The consequence politicians face by taking ineffective actions is maybe not winning their race. The consequence our neighbors face by taking ineffective actions is the erosion of their civil rights.
If you actually want to pressure politicians, you do it by contacting them directly to inform them of their failings, they’re not just going to magically know why you didn’t vote or vote third party.
Protest voting doesn’t apply the pressure you think it does.
Sure, that’s a thing you should do
They actually expend substantial effort and sums of money to find this out, there’s nothing magical about it.
On the other hand, voting for them anyway if they do something absolutely abhorrent and beyond any kind of humanity tells them they can get away with anything and is just a race to the bottom.
And yet here we are, so clearly they’re either drawing the wrong conclusions or they just don’t care. Either way, it’s not an effective strategy.
Elections don’t care about nominal votes, they only care about margins. Candidates don’t get any extra powers if they win by 1 vote or 1 million. The race is taking place with or without you. You can help the ones moving slower, or resign yourself and your neighbors to the ones moving faster. But protest voting doesn’t stop the race.
Write your representatives, protest, build dual power, organize your community, engage in direct action, run for local office; these are all productive strategies. Vote for ideal candidates in primaries. But in the actual election, vote strategically against the most abhorrent and least humane candidate, or you’re liable to get them.
But hey, at least they didn’t get Kamala Harris, who would somehow been worse than literal fascism
“You must accept this boot to the neck or we let the crazy guy shoot you,” isn’t the slam dunk argument you think it is.
Yes I’m sure Harris would have been terrible, a real boot to the neck indeed. Better to have Trump instead
Sure, comrade.
This isn’t reddit where bloodlusting fuckwits like you are cool and praised for making cringe statement as a gotcha.
Stop bootlicking the oligarchy. Maybe grow some spine.
Both are true, at the same time.
The right: these extremists decide elections so we’ll make it our whole platform again
The left: these extremists decide elections so we’ll blame them again
Who’s blaming? I am informing protest-non-voters what they voted for.
They unironically believe this would have all played out identically under Kamala.
Nobody thinks that.
Some of them think that it would have eventually reached this point anyway, if not under this republican administration, then the next one. And there’s a good case for that.
Others think you can’t sign on to far worse atrocities that just happen to be perpetrated elsewhere in the world, no matter what, because you are then personally complicit. Also a valid viewpoint.
The performative cruelty that this administration is practicing is genuinely a new low, it’s true. But the burden of doing something about it was and is on people with institutional power, not random ordinary people. The democrats could easily have won the election and they chose not to, and after the trump team, they are the ones to blame next.
The people that voted for Trump are first to blame. People that didn’t vote are second. It’s that simple. There are reasons why a person may have decided not to vote, but none of them change that fact that not voting was effectively a vote for Trump. I view non voters a small step above Trump voters. They at least have the same level of intelligence and critical thinking skills as one another.
That’s totally fallacious. Not voting is not voting. The only way to arrive at that conclusion is that you think that one specific party is by default entitled to votes, no matter what they do, which is wrong. Politicians have to earn votes. They chose a platform which was not popular and so they lost. And they did that to protect specific interests.
I do get being upset at people who are nominally on your side but decided not to vote. It’s understandable. But in no way are they anywhere near as much to blame as the people who had a more than two billion dollar marketing budget for their political campaign and decided “fuck what the people want”.
With the way our first past the goalposts system works, it’s true. By not voting you’re saying that you’re fine with either outcome.
When one of those options has straight up told you they’ll be a dictator on day one and you’ll never vote again, as well as publishing their playbook on how they’re going to do it, choosing to not vote against them is saying you’re fine with it.
And it’s not like protest voting actually hurt the DNC. It just hurt every vulnerable person in the country.
No it’s fact. Not voting supports the less good candidate 100% of the time in FPtP.
And yes, non voters are more responsible for this than the DNC sending a shit message. If non voters and third party voted Kamala, we wouldn’t have a dictator in the White house right now. The DNC didn’t put him there, voters for Trump and non voters did.
What are you talking about? It’s pretty rich to accuse others of lacking critical thinking and then come out with this. Someone who didn’t vote could have equally been someone who didn’t vote for trump. You mean “someone who was going to vote for the democrats but then didn’t”.
The DNC purposefully threw the election. They are the ones with agency here. Each non voter might have gotten them 0.00001% closer to winning. They could have gotten themselves 100% closer.
Just so you know, you’re replying to .ml there. I mean, I agree, but reasoned discussion isn’t going to win out with the leftist leftists that ever lefted.
Yea, I saw that after processing the comment. Still, I want people that may be unaware and read the comment chain to understand the reality. Silence is complacency.
Do third party voters come in between those two options or after “didn’t vote”?
Seriously, it’s all true. It is the fault of Trump Voters, the DNC, 3rd party voters, and non-voters.
Hell, I’ll go one further and say those who do nothing but vote for the most progressive Dem in the primary and then vote for the Dem no matter who it is AND that is all they have ever done to address how terrible the Dem party is, also share in the blame.
My inbox says otherwise.
They are morons then
Obama deported people! Both sides same!
Both sides onviously aren’t the same, one is more evil than the other. But they are both evil.
Obama has the blood of tens of thousands of innocent civilians on his hands, shame on anyone helping him wash.
Exhibit A.
People who think this is reddit and they’re winnning with these non-argument gotchas are hilariously sad.
You don’t find fault with that, or place responsibility on them?
See above.
Did so, question remains.