Many people on lemmy.ml deeply respect and admire authoritarian governments and organizations.
Iran, China, North Korea, Soviet Union…
The West has many flaws. But our flaws are nothing compared to these guys.
Iran hangs homosexuals. Iran shot 30,000 people in less than than 2 weeks. The Soviet Union had to build a fucking Iron wall to prevent people from escaping. The Soviets lied about the Chernobyl nuclear explosion. China censors the internet. China wants to eliminate Islam. North Korea is a totalitarian hellscape. Watching anime is a crime.
Why is lemmy.ml so fascinated with authoritarians?
Short answer: the Kremlin.
Long answer: Kremlin paid propaganda leaking everywhere.
It’s not lemmy.ml as a source, but rather a symptom.
I see two things going on:
- A general fall in trust in democratic institutions, as those institutions fail to represent people adequately;
- A clear realization of global injustice perpetuated by democratc countries against the will of people.
There aren’t many that that think that Iran’s goverment is good for Iranian people, but they do see that they are defending their civilization. This umderstanding requires that the observer is able to maintain two observations at the same time, instead of requoring complete black & white intepretations.
our flaws are nothing
Completely true if you don’t consider Palestinians as equals. Or Vietnamese. Or Koreans. Or Black people. Or Ukrainians. Or women. Or the entire continent of Africa. Or the entire continent of South America. Or the entire continent of Asia.
Literally unbelievable you’d be saying this during genocide in Palestine and western invasion of Iran.
you need to think like a cave man, conspiracy theorist, and an idiot all at the same time. america bad, therefore not-Amera good. Wikipedia is anti-communist propaganda
It’s on you that you’re incapable of understanding criticism to Wikipedia, it’s actually quite simple:
Wikipedia, especially so English Wikipedia, is edited primarily by tech-literate men living in the Anglosphere, and it’s sourced primarily by Anglosphere sources. For this reason, Wikipedia will portray the same bias that those individuals and sources portray.
That’s it, that’s literally it, it’s not so hard to understand. Now, if you understand this, and you are aware that Anglo media and individuals portray an Anticommunist view, then Wikipedia will simply replicate this view. It’s not just anticommunist, Wikipedia has its share of misogyny, of racism…
mirror images of conservatives, just look at them. they are more closer to liberterian-republicans, too afraid to be called republicans but support thier policies 100%.
Totally, we communists support republican policies like checks notes universal healthcare, free education, guaranteed housing, guaranteed employment, state pensions…
And then there’s .ml tankies that also support wars of conquest (if by Russia or probably if China, too), harsh censorship, wholesale slaughter of perceived enemies, etc.
The question wasn’t about communists. It was about the dipshit tankies on .ml.
Please do tell me which conquest war China has engaged in the past 50 years.
harsh censorship
It’s 2026, we’ve seen how western legacy media are owned by Zionists and social media are owned by oligarch Epstein class, we literally go into the Lemmyverse running away from this. Only thanks to Chinese-born social media such as Tiktok have we been able to witness the genocide in Gaza and open our collective eyes to the Palestinian cause. How, with this hindsight, can we criticise a country wanting to protect its citizens from this?
Additionally, seeing your interest against censorship, are you aware that most Russian media is outright banned in Europe? Have you seen how Chinese social media gets banned in the US unless it changes ownership to an American firm? And most importantly: does this desire for media availability from all over lead tou to read news coming from, say, Iranian, Chinese or Russian media? Do you actively consume such media, or do you consume your media de-facto equally to as if there were censorship of such media?
wholesale slaughter of perceived enemies
I believe you’re mistaken, the countries currently engaged in the genocide of Palestinians and threatening Iran with “the total elimination of a civilization” are the US and Isntreal, not communist.
Can you now bring up some points that are not projection of Western imperialism onto China?
“Tankie” is a pejorative for communist, I think you’re confused here. Communists don’t support “wars of conquest,” but they do support using force as necessary against fascists and capitalists, and censoring capitalist and fascist speech. Class analysis is core to communism, by reducing it to “groups we don’t like” you’re obscuring the class nature of communist theory in a way that makes it seem based on whims or genetics like fascism.
It’s a specific kind of communist, not all communists are tankies
The ones of any relevance seem to count. It’s a term levied against every major Marxist party and every socialist state.
Wait… Do you think the Iron curtain was a literal iron wall?
I can’t speak for everyone, but a lot of people have learned to just ignore many reports from international news organizations about anything, since those same organizations routinely repeat the US government’s released data, which has been filtered by international conglomerates with their own interests.
This is because those claims are often found to be untrue or wildly exaggerated after the dust settles.
That skepticism is the result of decades of “fake news” leading to a general doubt of any claim as a baseline.
…and that’s just for starters.
So, first, you must agree on what the truth is with sources that you can trust. Good luck.
I’ve read that Iran killed 30,000 people, but can’t read Arabic or know the context of images I have seen, and this could be true, however, given the track record of US media, I would consider the number to be wildly exaggerated just as a matter of course.
Also, I know that even IF it is true, that Iran has killed 30,000 protestors, the “good guys” can’t stop Iran and “win one for democracy and human civilization” without murdering many magnitudes more.
Anyway, I want to read about the IRON WALL the USSR built to stop people from escaping, please share
(not a tankie, and I think Muslims and all other religions should pay the same taxes as everybody else, which they consider to be a wild affront to their dignity)
Anyway, I want to read about the IRON WALL the USSR built to stop people from escaping, please share
Not OP, but my guess is the “IRON WALL” they’re referencing is a conglomeration of the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain. The vast majority of the iron curtain was enforced with military patrols, not a literal wall.
Lemmy.ml is largely made up of communists, who support the working classes holding state authority, rather than capitalist states where authoritarian control is in the hands of the tiny capitalist class over the working classes. State authority isn’t independent of class struggle, but is a product of it, and as such all states are “authoritarian,” but it’s far better for the working classes to hold that. And for what it’s worth, Iran is supported against the west and Israel, not as a socialist state.
As for your post body, a number of claims you made are lies.
Iran shot 30,000 people in less than than 2 weeks.
Incorrect, the UN estimates ~3100 total deaths. Western press made up the 30,000 figure at the behest of the CIA/Mossad to help foment regime change before their invasion.
The Soviet Union had to build a fucking Iron wall to prevent people from escaping.
No? Do you really think a landmass that large would do something like that? There was a wall in Berlin, but that was just as much to keep West Germans out, as the Cold War had tons of spies on both sides.
China censors the internet.
Not really a problem, it’s a good thing western spyware like Facebook isn’t allowed, and VPNs are plentiful. Censorship isn’t willy-nilly, it’s largely the internet equivalent of industrial protectionism.
China wants to eliminate Islam.
No? China has freedom of religion.
Watching anime is a crime.
No it isn’t, lol.
The West has many flaws. But our flaws are nothing compared to these guys.
It’s the opposite. Socialist countries have flaws and real problems, but the genocidal western empire is the biggest obstacle holding human progress back. They plunder the global south, are obliterating Palestine, and are all surging to the rightas the empire falls.
According to your UN site there:
Iranian authorities have acknowledged 3,117 deaths and approximately 3,000 arrests, whereas human rights organisations estimate these figures to be in the tens of thousands.
So its IRAN claiming 3100. Not the UN
The “Human Rights Orgs” have provided little to no evidence of there being deaths in the tens of thousands.
Communists are authoritarians because that’s what communism is, like by definition; it’s hard-left but also authoritarian. That’s literally what separates lib-left from auth-left, the same obviously being for lib-right and auth-right (I’m just going off of the standard four-quadrant political compass, which probably has its own deep, foundational issues).
I have friends who are self proclaimed “tankies”, and talking to them a lot about it, my best understanding of the way they put it is basically:
You need an Iron Fist® to fix anything, and an Iron Fist® to keep it that way.
I also think that .ml probably has a percentage of people from those locations, and most people, period, tend to think their way is the best way. Which is also fairly hard to prove because history keeps being altered and destroyed and humans only live for like 60-90 years and we don’t have a very advanced intergenerational memory. Or maybe we do but just don’t know how to learn very well from it when all it seems to scream is “BREED, EAT, SLEEP, STINKY, TRIBE, SCARY, RUN, FIGHT, SAFE, LOVE”. It’s like some people’s own evolutionary biology tells them to prevent others from learning history to establish dominance and power.
Hard to say whether or not we’ll make it. The solution-path definitely has a lot of construction and destruction.
You need an Iron Fist® to fix anything, and an Iron Fist® to keep it that way.
Unfortunately the existence and hegemony of the US in the previous century has de-facto meant that yes, you need an iron Fist to fix things and to maintain such things. The question is who wields this fist. In capitalism, the bourgeois wield it, they exercise this violence everyday (e.g. half a million murders yearly through economic sanctions by the US and EU alone). In socialism, it’s the working class who wield it against capitalists, and you’ll never forgive them for doing so.
I support the system that feeds the children and kills Nazis.
Thats also why old people think the young people’s culture is wrong. Thats not how they grew up, and they were born and made it old/successful enough to reproduce, so its a system that works so why would they change it with their new music and hairstyles? Theyre gonna get us all killed man.
In my experience the attitude of many of the more prolific users there is something like “America and the West are doing evil things, so their enemies must be the good guys”. Atrocities by Western-aligned states are readily accepted as facts, but those committed by countries on “their” side never happened and are merely Western propaganda. They’ll cite North Korea’s constitution to “prove” that it’s a free and democratic country, but when you point out reports showing that the reality on the ground is quite different from what’s written in the constitution, that’s of course just Western propaganda and the people who fled the country are being paid to spread lies. That dismissive attitude makes it impossible to have a serious discussion with them.
That said, I now have a solid blocklist of their “worst offenders” and found that there are plenty of people with way more balanced opinions as well.
Also some people have complete and utter, naive faith in the written law and intent.
Hello, a rational .ml guy reporting in
My political opinions are:
what if we just like were able to eat and stuff like that, that’d be pretty dope
Come over to our server 😘
It’s honestly suspicious that you haven’t been banned yet.
Nah, they fit right in at Lemmy.ml.
Actually after meaning to do it for a while and constantly forgetting about it I’ve decided to make myself go ahead and make a piefed account before I once again fall into the loop of “eh I’ll make it later” and them promptly forgetting it 2 seconds later
That’s implying that this is actually controversial and ot supported by other ideologies.
But that’s just a pet peave of mine.
“America and the West are doing evil things, so their enemies must be the good guys”
It’s illuminating. I used to be a hardcore anarco-capitalist/radical libertarian and that community had exactly the same thought pattern:
- Vietnam/Middle East show how USA lies for domination
- Snowden showed how CIA/NSA lies for control
- Markets showed how the Fed lies for moneyed elites
… and so on, so that it becomes a given truth that everything the government says is a lie, no matter what.
So then COVID comes along and all the libertarians are “FAUCI LIES! COVID IS JUST FLU!”
A few months (and a lot of Russian influence ) later, these people are believing that mRNA vaccines cause heart disease, etc etc etcANYWAY, what’s interesting to me is how these two diametrically opposed ideological communities – Tankies and AnCaps – have almost exactly the same group dynamics pathology.
I can’t help but laugh at the absurdity of “anarcho-capitalists”. Glad it’s past tense for you.
Wait until you read what real anarchists think of AnCaps.
ofc you understand AnCaps feel the same way about AnComs; that they’re fundamentally a contradiction
If one lacks compassion, then of course they won’t understand how someone can choose to support their community even without the government making them do it.
it’s because they want to feel special.
the root of so much of the people that get caught in these delusional thought pattern is simple massive insecurity. and by clinging to a delusion you can mask it with a feeling of superiority because you KNOW THE TRUTH.
same reason people get recruited into cults. the cultists specifically target insecure people they can emotionally exploit and isolate. they are not interested in secure people who are grounded in reality, because there is nothing for their manipulation tactics to work on.
extremist politics also always become quasi-religions, or merge with fundamentalist religious belief.
superiority because you KNOW THE TRUTH
Oh God yes, this this this!!
The Conspiracy folks all really get off on being Smarter Than You because the have Access to the Secret Knowledge. Once you have seen the evidence (eg “Fahrenheit 451”) and started associating yourself with “like-minded people”, then you too will become an Anointed One.
Culty culty cult
It is very seductive for people who feel their intellect and insights are not being seen.
Relevant Contrapoints: https://youtu.be/teqkK0RLNkI
Edit: lol at the .mls downvoting this
Horseshoe theory strikes again
Care to PM this list of offenders, please? I’m also trying to sanitize my feed.
I blocked the entire lemmy.ml. After a few months of paying attention I found that there were no thoughtful or interesting posts or comments from any user there, only glorification of authoritarians.
i blocked the triads, hexbear, lemmygrad, ml. lemmygrad is less of a problem since i dont see thier posts as much anyways, usually its mostly ml or hexbear, and they have taken over some other instances too.
i blocked them because .ml users constantly harass me, telling me what a brainwashed idiot I am for not thinking China is a utopia.
I don’t block them. I just keep pressing them for an explanation of their personal philosophy. Not regurgitated, preconstructed points, actual personal philosophy. It usually goes “accusation of fascism/zionist”, “bad faith/strawman/red herring/I don’t have to explain it to you”, “you’re a nihilistic anarchist”, non-sequitur, list of actions they’ve taken irl but can’t/won’t break anonymity to prove (anybody can claim they’ve done anything in an anonymous forum), and finally inform me they’re blocking me. I mean, that’s great, block me online. I still exist in the real world and you’re going to have to face me someday. Unless of course you empower your own authoritarian regime that will keep my constant demands for your individual opinion and “nihilistic anarchist” viewpoints blocked from society. Which is what I think they want, zero challenge from any source or counter philosophy.
i feel like thier accusation of zionism, is just the same thing as being anti-semetic in a way too.
I see this refrain a ton but have not had the same experience and I fairly regularly get into arguments with them. I’m perma banned from some communities on those instances cause of the PTBs they are. The worst I received was my first ever “kys” message from one member’s alt(but them and their main were handled in pretty short order). But that was one message of harassment, out of the probably hundred or so people I’ve pissed off so far.
To be very clear, I don’t go into their communities looking for fights. But I have 2 big principles I’m not willing to waiver even a tiny bit on. Those being Hasan absolutely shocked his dog, and Harris would in fact have been better than trump.
They just hate me because I have a basic grasp of economics and I don’t think businesses and landlords are inherently evil.
Who is Hasan? Some dumbass tiktoker?
don’t think businesses and landlords are inherently evil.
Literally every capitalist theory, from Adam Smith’s to Mill, from Hayek to Henry George:
Landlords are inherently evil.
Streamer they worship like maga worship trump.
Why did he shock his dog? Not that there is any reasonable justification, I just want context.
right, so an abusive narcissistic POS person they wish they could be.
make sense he’d abuse his dog rather than train it. god forbid you like… have empathy or compassion for another living thing and use that to bond with it… lol
That is a good summary.
Atrocities by Western-aligned states are readily accepted as facts, but those committed by countries on “their” side never happened and are merely Western propaganda
You’ll never find more staunch and nuanced criticism of socialist mistakes than that which takes place within socialism. It’s through communists that I learned and loathed things such as the deportation of ethnic Koreans in THE USSR, the actual scope and mechanisms and functioning of the GULAG system, or the anti-landlord revolts in China.
I highly encourage you to actually go with an open mind, and have an honest conversation with a comrade like @Cowbee@lemmy.ml or @AnarchoBolshevik@lemmygrad.ml about any of those topics. Not an argument, just a discussion to listen to what they have to say. You may be surprised.
Of course those people exist. Heck, I consider myself a socialist and the socialist party in my country has no issues whatsoever criticizing countries like China or North Korea. But those kind of nuanced opinions aren’t really the ones you’ll find over and over again on the frontpage of ml.
Of the users you named, I only know Cowbee, as Lemmygrad is defederated anyway. He’s definitely very knowledgable about communist theory and he’s capable of having an actual discussion, yes. Not even close to one of the worst users over there. But from my discussions with him, he’s quite obsessed with theory over practice and is perfectly willing to defend the IMO indefensible regime of North Korea.
the socialist party in my country has no issues whatsoever criticizing countries like China or North Korea
But they exclusively criticise said countries, no praise for their achievements. Assuming you’re from the EU/US/Canada/Australia, your “socialist” party offers no alternative to Capitalism, just milquetoast reforming at best and continuation of austerity policy (as for the past 20 years) at worst. If they don’t want off capitalism, they can hardly call themselves socialists.
But they exclusively criticise said countries, no praise for their achievements.
No, that’s entirely untrue. They (Die Linke in Germany FYI) have frequently praised China’s economic system and social progress, while still criticizing its authoritarianism and aggressive foreign policy.
I don’t put theory over practice, they are both crucial. I am perfectly willing to defend the DPRK from Yeonmi Park-style nonsense as it’s the most propagandized against country in the world. Is it perfect? No, no country is, but it also isn’t literally hell on Earth either, it’s a real socialist state that does a lot with how little they have due to sanctions, similar to Cuba (and both Cuba and the DPRK have historically been on great terms, which is a good litmus test to begin with).
And you still think that communism is the way? If so you’re just spreading their propaganda.
It did volunteerly kill millions, and still is in its remnants of russia for example. If you need a nuanced person to “open your eyes” for the atrocities made in URSS/USSR why not talk with a nuanced nazi, you might learn that they too did bad things. /s
Those discussions are such shit shows, stop trying to reanimate the old horrors of past, we actually have new interesting theories that might actually work without killing everyone.
And you still think that communism is the way? If so you’re just spreading their propaganda.
Socialism in real life has achieved the absolute highest rates of improvement for the working classes in terms of life metrics, immense social equality, and has presented a path forward in an era of dying capitalist imperialism. You’re spreading propaganda too, knowingly or not, given that propaganda is merely agitating for your own beliefs.
It did volunteerly kill millions, and still is in its remnants of russia for example.
The “millions intentionally killed” by socialism consist of landlords, capitalists, fascists, the Nazis, etc. Socialism has never killed people willy-nilly, but has run into conflict with the old ruling classes time and time again, as socialism is the establishment of working class power over the former ruling classes.
If you need a nuanced person to “open your eyes” for the atrocities made in URSS/USSR why not talk with a nuanced nazi, you might learn that they too did bad things. /s
This implies the communists and Nazis are equal evils, a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. Communists, upon gaining politucal power, did and do their best to uplift the lives of working people. The Nazis on the other hand built industrialized mass murder, and attempted to colonize Europe the way Europe had colonized the world.
Those discussions are such shit shows, stop trying to reanimate the old horrors of past, we actually have new interesting theories that might actually work without killing everyone.
What are these theories? Any establishment of socialism will necessarily put you into conflict with the ruling classes of capitalism. Socialism historically has not been a “horror” for the working classes, and as such has been popularly supported by them. A theory being “interesting” doesn’t make it practical, nor is socialism “killing everyone.”
Above all, here, you cling to vagueposting. You erase class analysis, weeping for killed Nazis, and when it comes time to present a solution, you just say “other things might work” without elaborating. It’s sterile and negative “left” criticism that serves nobody.
It did volunteerly kill millions
Yeah, killing Nazis and landlords is necessary for progress sometimes, not something to criticise. Those are the vast majority of the people communism killed on purpose.
If you need a nuanced person to “open your eyes” for the atrocities made in URSS/USSR why not talk with a nuanced nazi
Because you’re committing a fallacy by comparing the two. Socialism has achieved, in practice, lowest inequality where it has been applied, universal healthcare, universal education, guaranteed employment, guaranteed housing, guaranteed state pensions for retirees, redistribution of land from landlords and nobility to peasants… In my homeland of Spain we had fascism, and it literally fought against all those things, we still have plenty of people in their 70s and 80s who cannot even read as a consequence. Communism saved Europe from Fascism, they’re literally the antithesis.
stop trying to reanimate the old horrors of past
Stop trying to maintain capitalism by fighting against the only system in history which has proven it can destroy it and improve our lives.
Well I can’t speak for others, but I’m on lemmy.ml because the instance says it’s “A community of privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, run by Lemmy’s developers”. And in my experience that pretty much checks out, for all the talk I see from others about how it’s a den of authoritarianism and whatnot the actual amount of that I see on the actual instance is minimal. Yeah moderation sucks sometimes, but so it does on most every other instance though. Their approach to defederation seems to be avoiding it, and I don’t have to see any Nazi stuff or shit like that, so I’m good for now. Pick your poison.
The West has many flaws. But our flaws are nothing compared to these guys.
Well if you look a bit closer at the history of the cold war you will find that “the West”, mostly in the form of the CIA, destroyed a lot of nascent communist or even just social democratic governments worldwide through covert means, and sometimes even militarily. In the face of such a threat you are basically forced to become even more authoritarian, if you want your communist government to survive that is. So “the West” instituted a process of selection through political (and military) pressure if you will. Hence why there are no surviving liberal communist states left to discuss.
Anyway, I don’t think there is much of consensus here on lemmy.ml whether these countries are good or bad (or even something more nuanced). What I think often happens is that someone voices “critical support”, as in they say something like “Iran has a right to self-defence” although they don’t agree with everything else Iran does, and someone from another instance comes along to read it and confirmation-biases that into “typical lemmy.ml user, fully supports that theocratic regime”.
I mean just look at the straw man you build in your OP, supposedly I’m supporting the Islamic regime in Iran, and the anti-Islamic regime in China!? Bit of a stretch there mate…
I had my first account on .ml because “hey this is the official instance run by the devs, that sounds like a solid starting point” but after seeing how strong the anti-west, pro-authoritarian nonsense is on there (especially leading up to the 2024 election, the apathetic “both sides” people were out in full force), I decided to move to a different instance.
I’m not denying that there are such people around, but I don’t really think they are in the majority. Most of the specific things you mention I saw coming just as much if not more from other servers.
The Nazi bar example comes to mind.
Certainly the most vocal
A table with an unopposed Nazi is a nazi table.
Same goes for stalinists.
You haven’t been paying attention then. Dessalines, the head admin, regularly instance bans people for speaking about the genocide in China in .ml communities.
I mean I have seen that accusation thrown around a lot, but from what I remember it was a few cases a long time (years?) back. But yeah to be honest I haven’t really been paying attention, so if you have evidence to the contrary feel free to let me know. The goals and rules of the server as stated seem fine to me, and I haven’t seen anything that really deviated too far from that.
Anyway, like I said I may not agree with every moderation decision, but I probably wouldn’t on other instances either. Didn’t your instance just defederate the Germans for their heavy-handed moderation of anything remotely antisemitic? I mean I would get it with any other instance I guess, but your users didn’t get why the Germans would be a bit iffy with this stuff?
You seem way too knowledgeable about lemmy sever bans and federations for being “just some casual ml dude”.
Defending the TERF dessalines too … Bravo
This is part of why ml users get a bad rap. Both of your core statements/assumptions here are false, to a degree that it would be easier to assume bad faith and move on with my life than to type this response up.
So Dessalines’s continued and ongoing banning of any negative talk about China or Russia:
I’m not a particular fan of !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works, but what I see when I look at that community for the past month is mostly a running log of questionable at best bans that lemmy.ml admins, including Dessalines, have handed out.
I picked out some that stand out to me, but please peruse that community and your own instance’s mod logs at your leisure. You should be able to filter the mod logs themselves by action, and I believe by the mod or admin that took the action.
- https://infosec.pub/post/45516756
- https://infosec.pub/post/45465185
- https://infosec.pub/post/45126301
- https://lemmy.cafe/post/33294487
- https://lemmy.cafe/post/32620981
That poster clearly has a bone to pick, and that community does especially, but there is a concerning pattern there as well.
Didn’t your instance just defederate the Germans for their heavy-handed moderation of anything remotely antisemitic?
That is… quite an interpretation of what happened. Anti-semitism is not tolerated on db0. You see it, go report it and tell us what happens. Anti-zionism is not anti-semitism.
From the db0 admin team’s mouths, their take on what happened: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Funny enough, they don’t look kindly on Meanwhile on Grad/MoG. And I downvoted that post, voting that I did not want to defed from feddit.
Removed by mod
Whenever I come across a post like OP describes, and I check the instance, it’s ml (with a bit of hex in the mix). It seems fair to me to ask this question.
But then I guess the discrepancy is: “90% of a specific kind of users are on this instance”, which is absolutely not the same as “90% of this instances users are of this kind”
That handful includes the admins though.
Define authoritarian in a way that excludes the US and Europe but includes any country you listed.
No democracy. Single leader with cult following. Vanguard partyism.
I live in Spain. We have a literal monarch and royal family.
In the previous decade, a leftist party called Podemos appeared, and started to poll very high. Because this is unacceptable in Europe, the state came up with a solution:
A far-right wing of the police started to fabricate false evidence of funding of Podemos by Iran and Venezuela (history rhymes huh?), leaked it to capitalist media, and the media, ALL media, ran stories for YEARS about Podemos and Venezuela, about how they wanted to turn Spain into a Bolivarian republic and create hyperinflation… They destroyed a party from the state + media apparatus through an illegal lawfare psyop, and literally nobody has gone to jail for this.
Tell me again in how much of a democracy I live, where far-right parties are free to promote hate and leftist parties are literally destroyed by the state and media apparatus.
Vanguard partyism
Might as well just define it as, “Has socialist in the name” at that point.
The US and Europe aren’t democracies, while many of the listed countries are democracies.
Lol
The USSR had steady and consistent economic growth, and provided free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, cheap or free housing, and fantastic infrastructure and city planning that still lasts to this day despite capitalism neglecting it. This rapid development resulted in dramatic democratization of society, reduced disparity, doubling of life expectancy, tripling of functional literacy rates to 99.9%, and much more. Living in the 1930s famine would not have been good, but it was the last major famine outside of wartime because the soviets ended famine in their countries.
Literacy rates, societal guarantees in the 1936 constitution, reports on the healthcare system over time, and more are good sources for these claims.
The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about.
The Kim family does have outsized influence, but the DPRK is not a hereditary monarchy. For example, the position of President, held by Kim Il-Sung, was abolished and split into multiple positions upon his death. This is why he is remembered as the “Eternal President.” As such, both Kim Jong-Il and Kim Jong-Un have held different positions. Both have held high positions, for example Kim Jong-Il had the title of General Secretary of the Worker’s Party of Korea, a position held by Kim Jong-Un presently. However, this is not the whole story.
The DPRK has a much more distributed level of power, and the Kim family is both widely supported due to its influence, and yet is not the undisputed top-dog, so to speak. What’s more, the Kim family is so venerated precisely because the legacy of Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il is lived memory, imagine if Lenin had survived and raised his children as successors. It would be no wonder that the soviets would have elected his children, but it would not be a monarchy either.
Finally, class. Class is not a level of material wealth, but a relation to production and distribution. The DPRK is overwhelmingly publicly owned and planned, administration is not a distinct class in and of itself but a subset of broader classes, same with intellectuals. What determines class is based on that key aspect, the Kim family does not own capital but instead recieves wages from the state. Kim Jong-Un is largely used as a symbol, one that is democratically elected and directly trained by his father for the position.
This is why it’s important to actually study the real systems at play, rather than coast on pre-formed opinions drilled into us about the DPRK from western media. The Black Panther Party maintained good relations with the DPRK, visiting it and teaching Juche to Americans.
From Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance:
The DPRK’s electoral democracy relates primarily to the people’s assemblies, along with local state organs, assemblies, and committees. Every eligible citizen may stand for election, so much so that independent candidates are regularly elected to the people’s assemblies and may even be elected to be the speaker or chair. The history of the DPRK has many such examples. I think here of Ryu Mi Yong (1921–2016), who moved from south to north in 1986 so as to take up her role as chair of the Chondoist Chongu Party (The Party of the Young Friends of the Heavenly Way, formed in 1946). She was elected to the Supreme People’s Assembly and became a member of the Standing Committee (then called the Presidium). Other examples include Gang Ryang Uk, a Presbyterian minister who was a leader of the Korean Christian Federation (a Protestant organisation) and served as vice president of the DPRK from 1972 until his death in 1982, as well as Kim Chang Jun, who was an ordained Methodist minister and became vice-chair of the Supreme People’s Assembly (Ryu 2006, 673). Both Gang and Kim were buried at the Patriots’ Cemetery.
How do elections to all of the various bodies of governance work? Elections are universal and use secret ballots, and are—notably—direct. To my knowledge, the DPRK is the only socialist country that has implemented direct elections at all levels. Neither the Soviet Union (in its time) nor China have embraced a complete system of direct elections, preferring—and here I speak of China—to have direct elections at the lower levels of the people’s congresses, and indirect elections to the higher levels. As for candidates, it may initially seem as though the DPRK follows the Soviet Union’s approach in having a single candidate for each elected position. This is indeed the case for the final process of voting, but there is also a distinct difference: candidates are selected through a robust process in the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland. As mentioned earlier, the struggle against Japanese imperialism and liberation of the whole peninsula drew together many organisations, and it is these that came to form the later Democratic Front. The Front was formed on 25 July, 1949 (Kim Il Sung 1949), and today includes the three political parties, and a range of mass organisations from the unions, youth, women, children, agricultural workers, journalism, literature and arts, and Koreans in Japan (Chongryon). Notably, it also includes representation from the Korean Christian Federation (Protestant), Korean Catholic Federation, and the Korean Buddhist Federation. All of these mass organisations make up the Democratic Front, and it is this organisation that proposes candidates. In many respects, this is where the multi-candidate dimension of elections comes to the fore. Here candidates are nominated for consideration from all of the mass organisations represented. Their suitability and merit for the potential nomination is debated and discussed at many mass meetings, and only then is the final candidate nominated for elections to the SPA. Now we can see why candidates from the Chondoist movement, as well as from the Christian churches, have been and can be elected to the SPA and indeed the local assemblies.
To sum up the electoral process, we may see it in terms of a dialectical both-and: multi-candidate elections take place in the Democratic Front, which engages in extensive consideration of suitable candidates; single candidate elections take place for the people’s assemblies. It goes without saying that in a non-antagonistic system of class and group interaction, the criterion for election is merit and political suitability
As for the bodies of governance, there is a similar continuity and discontinuity compared with other socialist countries. Unlike the Soviet Union, there is a unicameral Supreme People’s Assembly, which is the highest authority in terms of laws, regulations, the constitution, and all leadership roles. The SPA is also responsible for the national economic plan, the country’s budget, and foreign policy directions (Han 2016, 47–48). At the same time, the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland has an analogous function to a second organ of governance. This is a uniquely Korean approach to the question of a second organ of governance. While not an organ of governance as such, it plays a direct role in electoral democracy (see above), as well as the all-important manifestation of consultative democracy (see below). A further reason for this unique role of the Democratic Front may be adduced: while the Soviet Union and China see the second body or organ as representative of all minority nationalities and relevant groups, the absence of minority nationalities in a much smaller Korea means that such a form of representation is not needed.
The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
So you failed given every European country and the US also has that. (as much as China or Cuba at least.)
The mistake you’re making is thinking that criticising other authoritarian regimes means supporting the one you live in.
It’s not a zero sum game.
OP’s post literally says “our flaws are nothing compared to these guys”, it’s not the commenter above who brought the west up.
Also, that’s not what “zero sum game” means, you’re maybe thinking false dichotomy?
No, the mistake I’m making is pretending any person using the word ‘authoritarian’ has thought for two seconds about the word or what it means. Hence why I’m trying to encourage those to think beyond the propaganda and instead actually dive into the philosophy it’s trying to obscure.
Authoritarianism, also known as ‘any two or more humans living together,’ is a meaningless buzzword invented in the 1940s to try to differentiate American and Fascist societies to get Americans on board with fighting their ideological clones across the Atlantic.
It has no static definition that meaningfully separates any society from any other society.
“Authoritarian regimes are actually just regimes, actually!”
What a stupid take to protect the fascists lol.
It is a valid point, though. Some people don’t even realize they’re in it. Like frogs in a pot of water, they’ve been boiled and are unaware.
I think a lot of Americans are under the assumption that post-Trump we just go back to freedomtm. And I hope that’s the case, but I’m skeptical.
In order to get close to freedom we’d at bare minimum have to go back to before Reagan.
I keep hearing equally unrealistic things that hinge on magical one-off situations. “What if he has a stroke?” or “The Dems will win and it will all change.” It won’t. They’re not going to self-regulate any more than they did in the past.
Tiny penis syndrome.
A note on my biases: I am a leftist. I am generally “anti-authoritarian”, but I have read some theory and listened to enough commentary to understand why folks are pro-authoritarian (and why Authoritarian is a label only applied to enemies of american hegemony). I am on .ml - which I don’t think matters, anyone’s account can be anywhere: fediverse, baby.
Lemmy.ml is a website hosted on a server. Why do its mods and some users hold those beliefs?
Many of those people are communists. Opposition to american hegemony is the main reason, or critically supporting other actually existing socialist states. They may think China isn’t perfect, but they’re attempting socialism and are standing up to the US and have the best shot at success. In the case of North Korea, they may think that attempt at socialism is genuine and much of the bad stuff they do is falsified or exaggerated for propaganda or just be giving critical support to a country that has been destroyed by the US via war and sanctions.
Or, in the case of Russia & Iran, they have stood in firm opposition to American hegemony, military bullying, etc. even though they are not Communist/Socialist. So, even though they do a lot of bad things and don’t have socialist values, they are a lesser evil than America. For Russia, them pushing back against NATO is seen as a direct war against the advance of global capital, even though Russia is capitalistic and fascistic (much like a weaker version of the US).
In all of these cases, when a person supports these governments, they are not really saying “Country good”. They are saying “I critically support Country in opposition to American hegemony and global Capital”. There’s a lot of memes and jokes, and some people just really support Russia and NK uncritically - humanity is a rich tapestry - but that’s the gist of it.
Understanding this POV requires an understanding of history (re: socialism & US interventionalism), critical theory (re: media), and an ability to be generous to edgelords online who are not always the best messengers of this (valid) viewpoint. It is socialist realpolitik, not idealpolitik - a view where current events can be interpreted in a way that their outcomes may foment the material conditions favorable to socialism.
Now a question for you: How can a democratic & socialist country exist in a world where American hegemony exists and America is hell-bent on maintaining the global capitalistic order?
Given the US’ massive power and history of destroying socialist movements with tremendous violence (military and economic), can a country maintain its status as a real democracy without the US:
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covertly funding extremist groups to coup the democratic government (Iran),
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committing direct election tampering to elect a pro-US party (Venezuela, unsuccessfully),
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launching proxy wars to murder their people (Vietnam, North Korea),
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destroying the country’s economy with sanctions and completely disconnecting them from global trade - causing mass starvation and poverty (North Korea, Cuba)
The answer is that without the aid of a country capable of standing up to the US, they do not. These countries that still have socialist goverments have to hold on to power in a world where US hegemony is a fact.
The answer is that without a country capable of standing up to the US, they do not. These countries that still have socialist goverments have to hold on to power in a world where US hegemony is a fact.
Maybe a naive question but is there no way to have a country that stands strong against the US and its interference without being repressive/authoritarian against your own people? What’s the point of being a socialist dictator for many years/decades if you’re not allowing the people to gain collective control of the land/resources/means of production/etc. for their own benefit?
I think the trouble is that “freedom of speech”, “freedom of expression”, etc. can be and are weaponized by colonial/hegemonic forces.
But, that said, that’s why I am not 100% supportive of this view. Possibly naïvely on my end, I think those sorts of freedoms are important not only for individuals but also as a check on state power. That said, I see how manipulative the US state department can be - and for that matter how manipulative foreign govts have been to the US - especially in recent election cycles… so I think it is a double edged sword.
That’s part of the reason I am also not a full blown anarchist/libertarian socialist. I can see the value in centralized state power when it comes to defending the state and people
Socialist countries are generally more liberating for their working classes than oppressive, hence high public support, but necessarily curb absolute freedoms such as those of capitalists.
What’s the point of being a socialist dictator for many years/decades if you’re not allowing the people to gain collective control of the land/resources/means of production/etc. for their own benefit?
The point is you’re making that up. Example: USSR.
The USSR reduced inequality to the lowest levels in history, redistributed the land to the peasants from the nobility and the landowners, guaranteed healthcare for everyone for free, free education to the highest level, guaranteed employment and abolished unemployment, guaranteed housing (at an average cost of 3% of monthly income), high quality public transit at affordable prices, heavily subsidized basic foodstuffs, and arguably most importantly, LITERALLY DESTROYED NAZISM saving tens of millions of lives in the process.
Did the system have mistakes? Of course it did, and you won’t find richer criticism than within communist circles, because people actually read about the topic instead of getting our information from the CIA. But despite its flaws, it was still the most liberating and anti-imperialist project in human history, it uplifted hundreds of millions from literal destitute poverty under tsarist autocracy and these people gave themselves all of this progress, importantly, without exploiting the global south.
How can you hate in 2026 the main system that has shown itself capable of facing and destroying fascism?
The problem is that “critical support” effectively boils down to affirmative defense for being a hypocrite, and the entire framework has literally nothing to do with any particular economic system or theory of statecraft. It’s literally just being mad about the cold war in a very weird way which insulates them from self reflection. It’s the exact baggage which keeps leftist ideas marginalized in most of the world.
It’s no accident that .ml is banned in China. Even the world’s most ostensibly successful socialist state understands that this tankie extremism is not helpful.
Thank you for sharing and clearly being one of the people able to hold two ideas in their head at the same time, even when the ideas don’t jive.
opposition to American hegemony and global Capital
Everybody who feels this way should be celebrating Donald Trump. He’s almost finished a job in 1 year that many thought would take generations.
I think they don’t completely diverge. I am sympatetic to this viewpoint, I just don’t fully endorse it. I think as leftists we should be generous to other leftists and their ideas.
Some do feel that way. Others feel that he isn’t a strong departure from where we were already heading. I think accelerationism is bad and we should never put ourselves in a position where fascism wins. Fascism needs to always be playing defense until it is totally defeated. Especially when it supports american hegemony, genocide, global poverty, etc.
Allow me to play Devils advocate. Can you give me an example of a country getting corporate money put of government without fascism?
“As a leftist” lol yeah good one that.
Oh, the old Whatabout the USA (/west).
Nah, historical communism is fascist (so URSS, China, NK. Russia is just a dictatorship nowadays).
Socialism and fascism are entitely different, both in theory and historically. In socialist countries, the working classes are in power and public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, while fascism is the violent assertion of power in capitalist countries to prevent the working classes from taking power.
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