I saw this quote on reddit today:
Most people are generally good to other people. The limiting factor is who they consider ‘people’. Doctors who comitted what are now known as barabaric acts – lobotomy, for example – genuinely thought they were doing good, because at the time all the common morals to their social/class group said so. Doctors who experimented on the bodies of minorities saw nothing wrong, because the results of these experiments were for the good of people. ‘Real’ people, that is.
It’s kind of a mind-blown moment for me as it makes so much sense. Ever since becoming ill and disabled and finding out how the disabled and unemployed are treated, I have been baffled as to how so many people who consider themselves good, kind people, passionately advocate for making the lives of the disabled more difficult. Wanting to cut or stop disability benefits, make them harder to get, complaining about how much we cost the health service, pushing us down priority lists - remember during covid when the disabled who became sick were usually left to die while the able bodied were treated? And this was justified and considered appropriate? At least in the UK. So many other things. But this is it. We simply aren’t really considered people any more, we’re now just seen as parasites. Really humanity hasn’t progressed on from being animals, we’re treated the same way many animals treat a sick or injured pack member, trying to push them out of the group and get rid of them so they don’t drag the rest of the pack down by being a burden.
this is why its important to not live life according to morals but material reality. this hit me when watching one of my favourite youtubers as a child. they were playing a game where you had to choose between a car running over young people vs old people, pets vs humans etc. (fucked up concept to begin with). thats when i realized that its morally right for old people to die and young to live, for animals to die so humans live, for disabled to die so able bodied live, for adults to die so the kids live etc. but the material reality and in the grand scheme of things nobody has to get ran over at all.
despite the flaws of many socialist states you rarely saw many atrocities because people were not guided by morals but by the reality that they could provide for anyone. coming from a post socialist state i cant help but notice how little i was confronted about these useless enigmas but then was bombarded with them after coming in contact with westerners.
nowadays westerners are debating about how its ”moral” to abort disabled kids and have euthanasia for the elderly before they will ever debate providing for all.
If euthanasia was a thing in the UK, I wouldn’t even object to the hatred and lack of care for the disabled. What infuriates me is that society doesn’t want to care for me, I have to fight endless battles for a tiny pittance that isn’t enough to live on without topping it up by begging, NHS staff have told me I’m a burden on the NHS and costing it too much money, they won’t provide basic things I need like transport or a carer, society endlessly tells me I’m unwanted, YET they won’t legalise assisted suicide. I want this service and I’m not allowed to access it, yet the state is allowed to stop my benefits and starve me to death, how does this make sense?
And I know someone will come with an argument about how we mustn’t have assisted suicide because people will be forced into it against their will, but i am past caring. They already kill us by neglect so why not just make it quicker and painless?
I have 29 pages of hand-written notes for one month of an injury, over 100 calls, about as many back and forth emails.
They really do try to drown us in minutia, and it is exhausting. But those are the politicians, boards, majority shareholders (and to a minor extent those whose retirement invests in these systems, but ignorant they work against self and others).
Capitalism is evil AF. It may still be as exhausting under socialism, but only because of limited multiple resources. We can either curse the darkness or start lighting lanterns.
I saw the same trolley game play out in hunter x hunter. The solution is to not to play. The question as posed is wrong. And so is the utilitarian framework. It simply doesn’t work in extreme conditions. The solution is beyond the scope of the utilitarian framework so valid solution is reject the backward ideology.
This doesn’t make any sense. This is like blaming the Soviet Union for centrally planning the distribution of limited food, crying “murderers!”
That analogy doesn’t work because we don’t live in a resource scarce society. Our society is resource rich but they’re allocated toward things that are harmful or unproductive.
A criterion was “extreme conditions.”
If they only allocated food to those who could work and chose to starve those who couldn’t then it would be the same.
people who consider themselves good, kind people, passionately advocate for making the lives of the disabled more difficult.
Well who does not? This passionately advocating is not that often a result of malice in my opinion. Ignorance also exists. Same people will advocate to make life difficult for unemployed folk, poor or children. Its often how the ruling class reacts to a crisis, spreading misinformation, lies and hate. An important reason why immigrants are always the alleged source of doom. I mean it in an abstract way, it doesn’t matter where in the world.
remember during covid when the disabled who became sick were usually left to die while the able bodied were treated?
Didn’t know about that in Great Britain. I only know about triage and that only happens if the situation is rather catastrophic. If there are more patients then doctors, then the doctors have to decide who has to be treated. Often this are then younger people or people who will rather survive. Not something I would want to decide tbh.
We simply aren’t really considered people any more, we’re now just seen as parasites.
Seen by whom? I feel frustration in your words and understand where they are coming from. In my case I can’t agree with you, however from the standpoint of the bourgeois state, disabled people are of course parasites and nothing more. That’s also goes for everyone who needs access to welfare. Rather putting the money into the war machine. That’s a tendency in many countries right now.
Really humanity hasn’t progressed on from being animals, we’re treated the same way many animals treat a sick or injured pack member, trying to push them out of the group and get rid of them so they don’t drag the rest of the pack down by being a burden.
But that’s not the case. Not all animals are behaving this way. And speaking about humanity as whole while mentioning “progressed on from being animals” you are drifting into the human nature field. The working class had fought for so many things. Disability benefits are a part of it. The problem is capitalism, not our species, and this should never be forgotten. Encountering shitty difficulties in life, I someday come to the conclusion, that its the fault of capitalism.
Well who does not? This passionately advocating is not that often a result of malice in my opinion. Ignorance also exists. Same people will advocate to make life difficult for unemployed folk, poor or children. Its often how the ruling class reacts to a crisis, spreading misinformation, lies and hate. An important reason why immigrants are always the alleged source of doom. I mean it in an abstract way, it doesn’t matter where in the world.
But it is malice. People get to hear both sides of the argument, disabled people often speak publicly about our trials. But most of society chooses to believe the “disabled are all scroungers/fakers/getting more money than workers” narrative, because they are bitter that they have to work and angry that others are getting what they see as their money. They hate the disabled (and yes, immigrants, etc) for this because they think it’s an easier life. As a disabled person myself I have seen it first hand, where someone will start speaking to me nicely, and as soon as they ask “what do you do?” and I tell them I’m disabled and unemployed, their entire attitude changes and they look at me with disdain and no longer want to talk to me. It’s not just ignorance, it’s hatred and anger.
Didn’t know about that in Great Britain. I only know about triage and that only happens if the situation is rather catastrophic. If there are more patients then doctors, then the doctors have to decide who has to be treated. Often this are then younger people or people who will rather survive. Not something I would want to decide tbh.
Well, during covid disabled people were left to die while the able bodied were treated. And it wasn’t just people with a lower chance of surviving, it was people with learning difficulties too, and people with lifelong disabilities but who were still capable of living into old age, people who stood just as much chance of surviving as a non-disabled person, but whose lives were seen as less valuable. Even if there isn’t enough medical treatment to go around, how is deciding who gets treated on this basis any different than Nazi eugenics?
But that’s not the case. Not all animals are behaving this way. And speaking about humanity as whole while mentioning “progressed on from being animals” you are drifting into the human nature field. The working class had fought for so many things. Disability benefits are a part of it. The problem is capitalism, not our species, and this should never be forgotten. Encountering shitty difficulties in life, I someday come to the conclusion, that its the fault of capitalism.
I didn’t say all animals behave this way, I said many do. I can’t agree it’s entirely the fault of capitalism, it is at least partly human nature. Even Thomas More, in his book Utopia, wrote that long term sick and disabled people should be killed to prevent them from being a burden on others. Even in ancient Sparta, the disabled were punished and chastised for being unable to fight. The ancient Greeks banned the disabled from many spheres of life including politics and religious life. In recent history, many nations sterilised the disabled. These are just a few examples. Society has never wanted the disabled.
But it is malice.
I still have to disagree. Ignorance can lead to malice, but nothing like a malice nature exists. Such things are a topic in the bible maybe, but anywhere else it doesnt make much sense. Your experience is valid, but your assumptions were true, disabled people would simply be killed in the next moment. So the teachers in those special schools are full of hatred as well? Same goes for psychiatrists? What is the reason for such professions, if it would be more easier to simply kill sick people? You can’t simply ignore the development of ethics in the medical field. I already explained how capitalism leads to chauvinism. But your mistake is to point it down to human nature and a few historic societies. You talked about material conditions, but now you ignore them. It’s not the humanity, which is at fault. I don’t feel malice towards disabled people, what is wrong with my human nature?
Well, during covid disabled people were left to die while the able bodied were treated. And it wasn’t just people with a lower chance of surviving, it was people with learning difficulties too, and people with lifelong disabilities but who were still capable of living into old age, people who stood just as much chance of surviving as a non-disabled person, but whose lives were seen as less valuable.
That’s not good. I was not successful finding anything useable about this. Can you provide something?
Even if there isn’t enough medical treatment to go around, how is deciding who gets treated on this basis any different than Nazi eugenics?
Its called triage. Also happens in war zones. Its the real trolley problem, nothing abstract. You have several people in critical conditions, who is treated then? If enough doctors are available, of course those who are more sick. But what if its a huge pandemic or a warzone like palestine. You can’t save everyone and some will more likely survive others not. So you have to make priorities. It is a logical consequence, anything else would be wrong. Of course the doctor can try to save someone who will die with a chance of 10%, while others who would survive if treated are dying. Triage is nothing fun. Its applied when the situation is damn serious. You can look about this topic online I think. Triage is not nazi eugenics.
I didn’t say all animals behave this way
But you chooses only a kind of animals as comparison.
Even Thomas More, in his book Utopia, wrote that long term sick and disabled people should be killed to prevent them from being a burden on others.
Why do you take especially Morus as a reference?
Even in ancient Sparta, the disabled were punished and chastised for being unable to fight.
Why only Sparta? How was it in Attica? What about the sacred band of Theben, the concept sounds like a gay porn film with more budget.
Society has never wanted the disabled.
Why are they still alive then.
As a disabled person myself I have seen it first hand, where someone will start speaking to me nicely, and as soon as they ask “what do you do?” and I tell them I’m disabled and unemployed, their entire attitude changes and they look at me with disdain and no longer want to talk to me.
Oh yes, I know that. The disdain in people if you tell them, that you are unemployment. However disabled and employed is usually way more fine. We could think about what the point is in hating unemployed people and if look into the bourgeois press, then you will probably find out why.
I do not have the strength to respond to everything but some people can rise above their animal nature which is why some people are compassionate towards the disabled. As for the majority of society, the reason sick people aren’t simply killed is because people want to feel like good people. If they said “Let’s just kill the disabled,” they would have to admit they are basically nazis, and most people have a better opinion of themselves than that. So they have set up a society in which there is a bare-minimum, difficult to access welfare state. This serves two functions, they can say “We provide for the needy, we are so compassionate!” and feel good about themselves, while at the same time making it so difficult to access and so bare-bones means that in reality many disabled people can’t get the help they need, and thousands every year die because of it. This way they keep costs down, kill off the disabled bit by bit yet can pretend it’s not by design and that they’re actually trying to help.
As for “why only choose those examples” what if we applied this logic to racism? If a black person in America talks about their experiences of racism there, and how historically they were slaves, would you say “Why only choose those examples?” And talk about times and places you think black people were treated well?
I can see we aren’t going to agree, and I am dealing with a lot of pain and sickness and stress right now I don’t have the ability to keep arguing about it. It’s also pointless to argue with someone who thinks leaving people to die because they’re disabled is acceptable, and that was NOT triage. Triage is saying “This person is having a heart attack, so he’ll get treated before the person who has a twisted ankle.” What the UK was saying during covid is: “this person with covid is disabled, so we just won’t treat them at all, and let them die.” Triage is treating the people with the most urgent medical need first. It’s not saying “This person’s life is less valuable and more of a burden to society so we won’t treat them at all.” That is actually eugenics. Do Not Resuscitate notices were placed on the medical files of many people with Down’s syndrome, autism and other learning disabilities who were otherwise healthy before contracting the virus. That’s not triage, that is a choice to get rid of people considered useless eaters.
Some quotes from the article:
many perfectly healthy individuals received letters from their GPs recommending they think carefully about whether they would want resuscitation if they went into hospital or would even want to be treated in hospital at all, should they get Covid-19.” Specialist nurses told Mencap that DNARs, also called DNACPRs, were “constantly” being put in place for people with learning disabilities “often inappropriately” and they were challenging them daily. DNACPR stands for Do Not Attempt Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation. Denying a person potentially life-saving treatment based on their learning disability is an act of discrimination and unlawful.
Mencap saw DNACPRs placed on medical files of people with a learning disability that were otherwise healthy, without their full understanding and/or consent.
Six out of 10 people who died from Covid between March and July 2020 were disabled, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).
In one such case 56-year-old Susan Sullivan, who had Down’s syndrome, was declined admission to intensive care (ICU) despite being seriously ill with Covid at Barnet Hospital in March 2020. She was also given a DNAR notice despite the express wish of her mother that she should be resuscitated if necessary, and she was not seen by a consultant for 20 hours. She died on a general ward 28 hours after being admitted.
some people can rise above their animal nature which is why some people are compassionate towards the disabled.
Reactionary take. Animal nature in people which allegedly leads to the death of disabled. Something you find in the bible, but for real not in real life.
As for the majority of society, the reason sick people aren’t simply killed is because people want to feel like good people.
Or maybe they don’t want to see people die, no matter if disabled or not. You can find explanations, why in certain episodes in the history of humanity the treatment of disabled people was different. But you choose to reduce it to animal nature, human nature and “people want to feel good”. Even liberals started to question why the holocaust could happen, despite so much “civilisation” and came to better answers for the reason of atrocities committed by humans then “animal nature”. You seem to think, that everyone wants you death. You maybe frustrated, but your arguments have still reactionary tendencies. The whole human nature thing is wrong. Especially how can you ignore the fact, that its always a certain type of people which push the narrative, that disabled people are a burden and influence heavily others?
So they have set up a society in which there is a bare-minimum, difficult to access welfare state.
They didn’t simply set up a society. For long time there was simply nothing and in many countries still is. Every counter reform against the working class is pushed by a certain class, openly. The welfare state is a reaction to the fights of the working class, like in other countries. They dismantle it and make the narrative. But you conclude it like everything was created by not disabled people against disabled. However they are still alive, because people want to show others, that they are morally fine.
This way they keep costs down, kill off the disabled bit by bit yet can pretend it’s not by design and that they’re actually trying to help.
The bourgeois state has still no interest to help the sick and disabled. Your mistake is, that you think its “society” as whole who wants disabled and sick people dead.
If a black person in America talks about their experiences of racism there, and how historically they were slaves, would you say “Why only choose those examples?” And talk about times and places you think black people were treated well?
No, because it would be historically correct. Racism in the US and Europe has a direct line to the enslavement of African people. But you are making connection between Sparta and today. How was it in Attica then, were the disabled treated better or worse? Is this a general trend in that time how disabled people were treated as whole? And if yes, is this now the explanation, why the NHS is denying basic things? Also the dude from the 16 century. Why him as reference? Believe it or not, I am disabled and my possibilities to work are limited. But I never would explain the bad treatment of disabled people with Sparta. Your experience is valid. But your arguments are not right.
It’s also pointless to argue with someone who thinks leaving people to die because they’re disabled is acceptable,
That’s the point which makes me lose any respect towards you. I didn’t say it, you make it up. I asked you for a source, because google only gave me shitty newsarticles about Great Britain, corona and nothing about what I looked for. Furthermore you claimed, that it would be some nazi eugenic shit, if a doctor had to decide in a catastrophic situation who has to live or not, if not enough doctors are available. That’s where I simply explained, that a Triage is nothing like nazi eugenic.
But you ignore it and now I am apparently support the death of disabled people how Great Britain had done it with disabled people.
Triage is treating the people with the most urgent medical need first. It’s not saying “This person’s life is less valuable and more of a burden to society so we won’t treat them at all.” That is actually eugenics.
Still no. Triage is about setting priorities who should be treated, IF medical resources are limited. The question is there, who should benefit the most from those resources. Its not about disabled people. The “less valuable” are your words, not mine. Nothing I said.
Triage is about setting priorities who should be treated, IF medical resources are limited.
No, it’s not. Dictionary definition of triage:
tri·age [ˈtriːɑːʒ]
noun
verb triage (noun) the preliminary assessment of patients or casualties in order to determine the urgency of their need for treatment and the nature of treatment required: “the clinic will be dedicated to the triage and treatment of patients with respiratory illnesses”“a triage nurse”
It’s to decide who needs treatment first, based on medical need. NOT who goes without treatment based on their value to society.
It’s to decide who needs treatment first, based on medical need.
This is a part. It doesn’t decide who should be saved. Otherwise during corona time the triage rules wouldn’t be the way the were. Same thing for war zones.
NOT who goes without treatment based on their value to society.
Free to quote me, free to quote me. Where did I said that, something about value to society. I don’t have the impression, that my English is that shitty.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. It’s not something many people have considered nor comprehend.
I feel like I’m banging my head against a wall when even some of our own supposed comrades refuse to accept the reality and even justify us being left to die on the grounds that our lives are less valuable than those of the able bodied.
I never invalidated your experience nor did I justify the death of disabled folks. You read what you want to read. Your experience is reality, but your thoughts about the evil human nature is not reality. You start to discuss in bad faith now. Maybe you are willing to read what I wrote at least, if I tell you that I am in fact disabled as well. I will send you my ID card with the contained disability score if needed. But just stop lying, that I want to see disabled people death. You can be frustrated, angry or whatever about your situation, but what you do now is not OK.
You are the one not arguing in good faith. I clearly said that disabled people in the UK were refused treatment for covid purely because they were disabled, and asked how deciding who gets treatment on this basis is different from eugenics. You claimed this is just triage, and logical. Even in your next post, you’re still claiming this is just triage. Triage is treating a more seriously ill person before a less seriously ill person as the more seriously ill person is in more urgent need of treatment. This is not what I am talking about. I have clearly explained that people with disabilities such as learning difficulties, who stood just as much chance of survival as non-disabled people, were refused treatment and left to die just because they had learning difficulties. You keep saying “if not enough doctors were available,” firstly nowhere did I say that not enough doctors were available. Secondly even if not enough doctors were available, deciding to refuse treatment to a person because they are disabled is still eugenics, and as stated in the article, actually illegal. You are not arguing in good faith, you’re adding things that aren’t there and refusing to accept what triage actually means, as well as denying things you’ve previously said. So I am not answering any more. And you claiming to be disabled doesn’t atually absolve you of anything you’ve said.
I’m not sure how this relates to my post.
