I saw this quote on reddit today:
Most people are generally good to other people. The limiting factor is who they consider ‘people’. Doctors who comitted what are now known as barabaric acts – lobotomy, for example – genuinely thought they were doing good, because at the time all the common morals to their social/class group said so. Doctors who experimented on the bodies of minorities saw nothing wrong, because the results of these experiments were for the good of people. ‘Real’ people, that is.
It’s kind of a mind-blown moment for me as it makes so much sense. Ever since becoming ill and disabled and finding out how the disabled and unemployed are treated, I have been baffled as to how so many people who consider themselves good, kind people, passionately advocate for making the lives of the disabled more difficult. Wanting to cut or stop disability benefits, make them harder to get, complaining about how much we cost the health service, pushing us down priority lists - remember during covid when the disabled who became sick were usually left to die while the able bodied were treated? And this was justified and considered appropriate? At least in the UK. So many other things. But this is it. We simply aren’t really considered people any more, we’re now just seen as parasites. Really humanity hasn’t progressed on from being animals, we’re treated the same way many animals treat a sick or injured pack member, trying to push them out of the group and get rid of them so they don’t drag the rest of the pack down by being a burden.
I do not have the strength to respond to everything but some people can rise above their animal nature which is why some people are compassionate towards the disabled. As for the majority of society, the reason sick people aren’t simply killed is because people want to feel like good people. If they said “Let’s just kill the disabled,” they would have to admit they are basically nazis, and most people have a better opinion of themselves than that. So they have set up a society in which there is a bare-minimum, difficult to access welfare state. This serves two functions, they can say “We provide for the needy, we are so compassionate!” and feel good about themselves, while at the same time making it so difficult to access and so bare-bones means that in reality many disabled people can’t get the help they need, and thousands every year die because of it. This way they keep costs down, kill off the disabled bit by bit yet can pretend it’s not by design and that they’re actually trying to help.
As for “why only choose those examples” what if we applied this logic to racism? If a black person in America talks about their experiences of racism there, and how historically they were slaves, would you say “Why only choose those examples?” And talk about times and places you think black people were treated well?
I can see we aren’t going to agree, and I am dealing with a lot of pain and sickness and stress right now I don’t have the ability to keep arguing about it. It’s also pointless to argue with someone who thinks leaving people to die because they’re disabled is acceptable, and that was NOT triage. Triage is saying “This person is having a heart attack, so he’ll get treated before the person who has a twisted ankle.” What the UK was saying during covid is: “this person with covid is disabled, so we just won’t treat them at all, and let them die.” Triage is treating the people with the most urgent medical need first. It’s not saying “This person’s life is less valuable and more of a burden to society so we won’t treat them at all.” That is actually eugenics. Do Not Resuscitate notices were placed on the medical files of many people with Down’s syndrome, autism and other learning disabilities who were otherwise healthy before contracting the virus. That’s not triage, that is a choice to get rid of people considered useless eaters.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/thousands-of-disabled-people-died-after-covid-treatment-withheld-inquiry-to-probe-2970333
Some quotes from the article:
many perfectly healthy individuals received letters from their GPs recommending they think carefully about whether they would want resuscitation if they went into hospital or would even want to be treated in hospital at all, should they get Covid-19.” Specialist nurses told Mencap that DNARs, also called DNACPRs, were “constantly” being put in place for people with learning disabilities “often inappropriately” and they were challenging them daily. DNACPR stands for Do Not Attempt Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation. Denying a person potentially life-saving treatment based on their learning disability is an act of discrimination and unlawful.
Mencap saw DNACPRs placed on medical files of people with a learning disability that were otherwise healthy, without their full understanding and/or consent.
Six out of 10 people who died from Covid between March and July 2020 were disabled, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).
In one such case 56-year-old Susan Sullivan, who had Down’s syndrome, was declined admission to intensive care (ICU) despite being seriously ill with Covid at Barnet Hospital in March 2020. She was also given a DNAR notice despite the express wish of her mother that she should be resuscitated if necessary, and she was not seen by a consultant for 20 hours. She died on a general ward 28 hours after being admitted.
Reactionary take. Animal nature in people which allegedly leads to the death of disabled. Something you find in the bible, but for real not in real life.
Or maybe they don’t want to see people die, no matter if disabled or not. You can find explanations, why in certain episodes in the history of humanity the treatment of disabled people was different. But you choose to reduce it to animal nature, human nature and “people want to feel good”. Even liberals started to question why the holocaust could happen, despite so much “civilisation” and came to better answers for the reason of atrocities committed by humans then “animal nature”. You seem to think, that everyone wants you death. You maybe frustrated, but your arguments have still reactionary tendencies. The whole human nature thing is wrong. Especially how can you ignore the fact, that its always a certain type of people which push the narrative, that disabled people are a burden and influence heavily others?
They didn’t simply set up a society. For long time there was simply nothing and in many countries still is. Every counter reform against the working class is pushed by a certain class, openly. The welfare state is a reaction to the fights of the working class, like in other countries. They dismantle it and make the narrative. But you conclude it like everything was created by not disabled people against disabled. However they are still alive, because people want to show others, that they are morally fine.
The bourgeois state has still no interest to help the sick and disabled. Your mistake is, that you think its “society” as whole who wants disabled and sick people dead.
No, because it would be historically correct. Racism in the US and Europe has a direct line to the enslavement of African people. But you are making connection between Sparta and today. How was it in Attica then, were the disabled treated better or worse? Is this a general trend in that time how disabled people were treated as whole? And if yes, is this now the explanation, why the NHS is denying basic things? Also the dude from the 16 century. Why him as reference? Believe it or not, I am disabled and my possibilities to work are limited. But I never would explain the bad treatment of disabled people with Sparta. Your experience is valid. But your arguments are not right.
That’s the point which makes me lose any respect towards you. I didn’t say it, you make it up. I asked you for a source, because google only gave me shitty newsarticles about Great Britain, corona and nothing about what I looked for. Furthermore you claimed, that it would be some nazi eugenic shit, if a doctor had to decide in a catastrophic situation who has to live or not, if not enough doctors are available. That’s where I simply explained, that a Triage is nothing like nazi eugenic.
But you ignore it and now I am apparently support the death of disabled people how Great Britain had done it with disabled people.
Still no. Triage is about setting priorities who should be treated, IF medical resources are limited. The question is there, who should benefit the most from those resources. Its not about disabled people. The “less valuable” are your words, not mine. Nothing I said.
No, it’s not. Dictionary definition of triage:
tri·age [ˈtriːɑːʒ]
noun
verb triage (noun) the preliminary assessment of patients or casualties in order to determine the urgency of their need for treatment and the nature of treatment required: “the clinic will be dedicated to the triage and treatment of patients with respiratory illnesses”“a triage nurse”
It’s to decide who needs treatment first, based on medical need. NOT who goes without treatment based on their value to society.
This is a part. It doesn’t decide who should be saved. Otherwise during corona time the triage rules wouldn’t be the way the were. Same thing for war zones.
Free to quote me, free to quote me. Where did I said that, something about value to society. I don’t have the impression, that my English is that shitty.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. It’s not something many people have considered nor comprehend.
I feel like I’m banging my head against a wall when even some of our own supposed comrades refuse to accept the reality and even justify us being left to die on the grounds that our lives are less valuable than those of the able bodied.
I never invalidated your experience nor did I justify the death of disabled folks. You read what you want to read. Your experience is reality, but your thoughts about the evil human nature is not reality. You start to discuss in bad faith now. Maybe you are willing to read what I wrote at least, if I tell you that I am in fact disabled as well. I will send you my ID card with the contained disability score if needed. But just stop lying, that I want to see disabled people death. You can be frustrated, angry or whatever about your situation, but what you do now is not OK.
You are the one not arguing in good faith. I clearly said that disabled people in the UK were refused treatment for covid purely because they were disabled, and asked how deciding who gets treatment on this basis is different from eugenics. You claimed this is just triage, and logical. Even in your next post, you’re still claiming this is just triage. Triage is treating a more seriously ill person before a less seriously ill person as the more seriously ill person is in more urgent need of treatment. This is not what I am talking about. I have clearly explained that people with disabilities such as learning difficulties, who stood just as much chance of survival as non-disabled people, were refused treatment and left to die just because they had learning difficulties. You keep saying “if not enough doctors were available,” firstly nowhere did I say that not enough doctors were available. Secondly even if not enough doctors were available, deciding to refuse treatment to a person because they are disabled is still eugenics, and as stated in the article, actually illegal. You are not arguing in good faith, you’re adding things that aren’t there and refusing to accept what triage actually means, as well as denying things you’ve previously said. So I am not answering any more. And you claiming to be disabled doesn’t atually absolve you of anything you’ve said.
You are still lying. Not only that, you edited your comment. There was NO source, no article. Now there is and I asked you about that. Since you edited it, of course I coudlnt say anything more about it then asking for a source because I want to know more about that.
This is triage as well. Also the question who should be treated in catastrophic situation if there are not enough resources. You can’t be that in denial and ignore history. Your dictionary says the right thing, however it is more. And I still mentioned it, because it is the only situation I know where decisions, who should treated and who not, can be made.
I wanted to read about that, could not find anything. And then later you just edit your comment and paste it into.
You said that it would be nazi eugenics if a doctor would decide who should be treated, if resources are few. I quoted and explained why its not nazi eugenic shit. But it had clearly in that point nothing to do about corona and the treatment of disabled people.
Of course this would be eugenics. I never said anything else. I talked about treatment decisions made in war zones and catastrophes, because you said, that to decide itself is eugenic stuff.
You are very frustrated and say reactionary things like human nature, animal nature, Sparta and the inherent hatred against disabled people in humanity. Your experience doesn’t mean that you won’t receive critics for such takes. Of course it would be good faith if one would simply say :“You are right, they want to kill us tomorrow, its their nature”.
Being in denial about triage is however something special.
Which?
Oh oh, I am only claiming it now. Right, no disabled person would disagree with you. My words however are the product of my human nature I guess, I didn’t overcame the animal part in me. So you can’t be mad at me, no matter how much you fail in reading. For real, stop behaving shitty. Lying, then editing your comment to add an article only to claim then, that I apparently think that I am fine with the dead of disabled people. How shameful.
That’s fine and OK. More important is, that people reading this will at least see, that this liberal reactionary stuff like “human nature”, " Some humans didn’t overcome animal nature", “Humans have inherent malice against disabled people” is not simply accepted but will get rejected. Every time I read how human nature is the reason for something, than I will comment.
Edit:
This is how you can edit comments. Write, that you edited. However I had enough experience with Reddit, where users did the same thing. The most annoying was a dude who edited it several times. Every time in a way, that made me look like some evil communist trying to eat children. I really really should start taking screenshots.
Please calm yourself, friend. It’s an online comrade who will either choose to comprehend, or not.
You are right about that. I genuinely wish the person only the best in this struggle and maybe should stopped earlier. Thanks for your words
You’re welcome, comrade. I exacerbated my own conditions getting stuck on things that ultimately wasted my time, energy, effort, money, mental and physical health. I’m not about that, anymore.
I am and have worked in and adjacent to health off and on for over 30 years. They’re telling you the truth. Triage aims to make best use of limited resources, providers, medicines, bed spaces, medical devices, time, allocated funding. And I’ve been on the other end, the one who falls through the cracks. While there are exceptions, it is extremely difficult for those on either end, in any job. In the medical field, if you get too personally invested in care, you burn out quickly, and become unable to care for others or yourself. Health care workers already are forced to put themselves last, when there isn’t enough funding, not enough providers. Same with billing. Same with claims. We know it stinks, but if we didn’t do it from compassion, no one would. Every care provider would only be in it for money. We do learn to control our thoughts and feelings, so we don’t lose our mental and physical health, and the often meager means to support our own basic needs. Some may start the job cold and callous. Some get that way doing the best we can with the tools given us. The vast majority learn self-mastery to continue providing care for as many people as they can.
That’s why, even though I have lost my temper in my current situation, I chose and forced myself to quickly regain my composure. The agent and providers with whom I’m working have been wonderful, if not as either knowledgeable, or having access to the best tools for whatever reason, or some combination thereof.
I have worked with providers who did have and simply didn’t care (and I’m not privy to the cause), and felt the seething resentment on behalf of those in my care. I’ve lost jobs over it, so those who cared less and entered the field because they needed a job and it was the most expedient route. I’ve been visciously physically and verbally assaulted while providing the best care I could, and I’ve injured myself doing too much. And who benefitted from it? Neither patient, care provider, orderly, billing specialist, claims representative. The BoD and majority shareholders, and crooked politicians did (and here I will say even some politicians care, but are constrained by law, unknowledgeable fellow politicians, or greedy ones, or even their own inability to comprehend the vast scope of the entire issue).
And to be frank, you don’t have full comprehension of the issues, either. You fully comprehend your personal perspective, which also lacks a full and clear comprehension of the vast scope of the who l entire issue. I don’t either. Doctors with 50 years experience don’t. Those who have a fuller comprehension have worked multiple roles in the industry, moving from one to another, in various roles in various fields, in various practices. And even then, the ability to grasp a full, complete picture is elusive, let alone full comprehension, because science, knowledge, technology, funding is ever-changing, every moment of every day.
So, the example from the article i posted, you think it’s right that someone was denied lifesaving care just because she had Down Syndrome, even though her mother was begging for her to be treated? You think it’s right that the government was sending letters to people with learning difficulties, asking them to sign DNRs in case they became sick so the government wouldn’t have to waste resources on them? Even though all of this was against the law? People should be allocated medical care based on their perceived usefulness to society? I suppose it’s this mentality which has led to the situation in Canada, where people with illnesses and disabilities are being pushed into assisted suicide against their will. Why not just reopen the gas chambers then, get rid of all the disabled, societies would save a lot more resources then.
Seriously lacking in analysis, seriously high in reactionary idealism.
Everyone wants a unicorn.