What state was going to turn if all green party voters voted Harris?
Because you can’t name one, I’ll proceed to the next point: it’s the job of the party to court votes. That’s it. They don’t have another job. And when they fail in doing that, they’ve failed in their job.
A party blaming voters is like a sailor blaming the sea. The sea just is what it is. There is nothing any sailor or captain, or person looking from land can do to change the manner of the sea.
The voters are the way they are. You can hate the way that they are, you can wish they were different than how they are, but that doesn’t not change them. We told you this in 2023. You ignored us and told us that “the voters just needed to suck it up and vote this way”. But the voters didn’t, because that’s not how voters work. And by resisting calls for the party to change, you are doing the work of setting us up for further failure.
If you are blaming voters, an amorphous blob over which neither you, nor I, nor anyone else has control of: you are a saboteur of the effort to stop fascism.
It is politically illiterate to blame voters. When the sailors in board tell the captain “don’t go that way, there are rocks”, and the captain says "well the rocks better move, whose fault is it that the rocks didn’t move?
Libs would rather try to get millions of ordinary people to give up their most fundamental moral principles than ask one powerful person to exhibit basic human decency. They essentially treat politicians like gods, to be followed unconditionally. No form of democracy could ever work with such a submissive populace.
That’s if you take what they say at face value, anyway. The reality is a lot of them don’t want to pressure politicians about things like the genocide of foreigners because they don’t genuinely care. They just have to pretend to for rhetorical reasons to appease leftists. If a politician disagrees with them on something they actually care about, they may suddenly find their misplaced spines. Hard to say how many are like that, as opposed to the ones who are genuinely spineless.
You can’t expect the people who blindly vote for their favorite color to actually understand what an election is, let alone want to win an election.
They don’t care what happens in the oval office as long as it’s blue. Like how Biden didn’t actually stop the cages on the border, they just ignored it until Trump was in office. And then they pretend to care again as they say all Latinos are guilty of what the DNC chose to ignore.
Let’s not overlook Biden as a senator voting for increased police funding as well as making federal student loan debt harder to discharge while also being more predatory. Politically he’s still highly conservative just not AS conservative. At this point any point of conservatism is beyond reprehensible to me.
I won’t overlook it, neither did the people in the 2020 primaries before Biden was forced into the front runner, with the woman who called him out on his racist policies impacting her as a child as the VP pick.
Okay, take another step: how do you get those voters to have voted in 2024?
We’re going to run two experiments, @FiniteBanjo@feddit.online , which will both start with the following premise:
It’s August 2024, the night before the convention, and you are Kamala Harris’s campaign manager. You are just coming off the big bump in polling you got from naming Tim Walz your vp. So far, your polling has been meteoric. You managed to got from the low forties high thirties to high forties in weeks.
You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend, and a week of captured media going into the convention. You have three months.
The experiment (0, 1) is conducted by you answering the following questions follows:
0 You are not allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
1 You are allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
If you actually answer those in good faith, you figure out how to get those 6 million voters back, and perhaps also understand how to have not lost them in the first place.
Maybe we could fight back against the constant feed of misinformation run by Republicans, Billionaires, and Hostile Foreign Dictatorships? Yeah, I think thats how we get those votes back. We need DNC boots on the ground, door to door deep canvasing. Volunteering for the DNC is the most successful strategy to get the GOP out of power. It’s how we tax the rich, pass singlepayer, remove PAC money, punish bribery, and hold criminals at the highest level of government accountable.
You could at least pretend to try and answer the question in good faith.
You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend: What do you do differently in the Harris campaign, if not change her policies, that causes her to win?
And if you can’t propose a method to using the 1.5 billion dollar warchest to win without changing her policies then you have to concede that we were right.
Musk bought twitter for $44 Bn and idk how much TikTok costs the Chinese but it made $33 Bn in Revenue, the arbitrary $1.5Bn seems pretty inconsequential.
Personally I’d have done more grassroots organization, more paid and volunteer position openings, and remove that guy from the campaign team who said there wouldn’t be an unrealized gains tax: that guy sucks. Definitely don’t bring the Chenneys on stage.
Personally I’d have done more grassroots organization, more paid and volunteer position openings, and remove that guy from the campaign team who said there wouldn’t be an unrealized gains tax: that guy sucks.
Do you understand what a grass-roots organization is? By definition, you can’t helicopter in and create a grassroots organization. Are you going to stand by these statements here, in good faith, and argue that if Harris did these things, she would have won the election?
Because this looks like some thin ass bullshit. Tittering around the edges. I think you need to face reality.
Grass Roots means organizing from the bottom up. Bernie Sanders is often cited as a perfect example of Grass Roots, his campaigns are run by his team and the cooperation of many small groups and individuals, and likewise his funding comes from mostly small amount individual donations.
I’m not sure if she would have won if she had done those things, as I mentioned earlier the cards were stacked against her, the billionaires and foreign powers bought this election.
The options were Gaza destroyed but worst or Gaza destroyed but at least it was a Democrat instead. Not lesser evils when it’s still reprehensibly evil.
100% this. It’s all so tiresome to listen to those types, too. They really do think they are so very self-righteous and better than the “neoliberal shills”, etc. 🙄
If Harris wanted to win the election, they needed to listen to us and capitulate. It’s not more complicated than that. We gave the roadmap, we were informed, and the post mortems show us to have been right the entire time.
Harris ran a losing campaign. That’s an objective fact. We have a path to winning the election. Internet wide, apologists for Democrats chose to ban us, silence us, and wag their finger. Butt they didn’t have right of it. Their calculations were wrong.
We were litterally begging Harris to just fucking lie to us about her position on Gaza. Just fucking signal that she’d do something, anything to push back on Israel. She couldn’t even muster the most mediocre of efforts.
Then they lost the election.
And here’s the issue, and I’ve outlined this ad nauseum, and I’ll continue to do so until everyone understands: you don’t control the electorate.
You don’t have a choice in what people think or how they behave. And there are no functional mechanisms to move populations of people to whatever you think they “should” believe or how you think they should act. Moving populations is a decadal, generational project.
There is one path to winning elections: understand the electorate, and then move candidates into adopting those positions. You can’t shame, badger, or otherwise abuse voters into voting how you want them to. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t if you don’t like it. Trying to do so is counterproductive.
^ Well, I’m not sure if this is an actual question in good faith given this is coming from a banned account.
But, to answer it - I’m not sure if I said I never get response from leftists. Hell, I consider myself and many I affiliate with a leftist (despite all the arguments in bad faith that tend to kick off by calling everyone with even a slight disagreement a “shitlib” or a “neoliberal shill” and so on). If I said that, I didn’t mean it - what I meant is that I see less of them (online) since the election.
I have enough of the type of unapologetic unhelpful bad-faith types of “leftists” in my personal life even if all the online trolls/bots really did disappear immediately after the election.
I’ve had the conversation enough times and it’s nearly always done in bad faith and delusion. I’ve had it so many times that I could practically write out their responses anyway, so I don’t really see it going anywhere. In any case, I’m sure I’ll have it IRL soon enough as I have enough associates of the tankie archetype. It’s weird how much of the Murc’s Law media and reactionary centrist tropes they have adopted, that’s for sure…if I didn’t experience this kind of thing IRL, I’m not sure I’d even be convinced that all of these online characters were not just a form of online agent provocateur. I believe that at least some of the online people legitimately hold their views.
Bit weird how Darwin keeps ignoring you every time you prove him wrong. Even when pinged, he doesn’t reply to you. I’m sure there’s nothing weird about that.
Sorry, you didn’t instantly say you’d vote for no matter who they appoint without the consent of the voters, so you’re going to banned and ignored now.
Vote Blue No Matter Who! Even if they actively harm their own campaign, pledge to have a stronger border than Trump, actively enable genocide, and fail to keep promises that got voters engaged.
Sorry you don’t want to win, if you wish to keep Republicans elected, you can just swap party affiliation. You clearly don’t care about what Democrats want, only their corporate donors from the military-industrial complex.
Why Western Europe’s interests as opposed to the world’s interests? Western Europe is doing relatively fine, it seems to me that I have a greater responsibility to look out for the global poor, especially those who are suffering due to US intervention.
But why should US politics be oriented towards helping people who are already wealthy and secure instead of people who are poor and vulnerable, especially when their situation is our fault?
Do you think that supporting the interests of Western Europe is going to result in the US adopting a Western European style constitution? How do you envision this playing out, exactly?
The user above you seems to be advocating that we vote for the only opposition the Republicans have ever had with any chance of actually winning elections, so your statement doesn’t really make sense. You’re saying voting for the only other option is keeping them elected? Are you Bizarro Superman?
We had answers to get Harris elected. She and her working for free sycophants said that she didn’t need them to win. She lost. Her sycophants then went on to say the people who they didn’t need or needed to listen to cost them the election.
Again, sorry you don’t want to have the DNC ever win again. You can just turn in your I Voted sticker for a MAGA hat, there’s no difference in the end. Sorry we tried to help her win, not sorry we were right all along and were ignored.
I get the feeling you would suck Trump’s dick if it tasted like candy and everyone was weirdly cool with it, but we don’t live in your wackass alternate realities. The differences between party policies is night and day, and Trumps antics would get him removed in an instant if it were up to every GOP and 20 DNC.
I’m talking about who you would favor if there’s a presidential election between Donald Trump’s third term, on the Democratic ticket, and a despicable fascist who gives a new definition to the word evil, on the Republican ticket. And some third party candidates.
Does Blue No Matter Who still hold? I just want to clarify how strongly you believe in “No Matter Who”.
Well, since the orange shitstain just sits in the “first bedroom”, eating KFC and watching Animal Planet and doesn’t actually have any convictions or positions of his own and the entire administration would actually be calling all the shots, I would likely vote for Trump in that case once in the voting booth. Trump was actually a Democrat until 2009, he could have the Dem nominee if all of this had played out a particular way in 2008 instead of 2016. That said, I definitely would have been trying everything to keep the DNC from picking Trump up until the convention.
I guess it depends on who was really running against Trump since a 140 year old confederate corpse wouldn’t be.
Right, that’s what I was thinking. I admit Jefferson Davis was probably a bad example, but I was trying to go for someone who is clearly worse than Trump. With the scenario of:
The Republicans abandon Trump and instead support a young guy who openly advocates war with Denmark, annexing Canada, and nuking the fuck out of Britain and France. This individual has also been leading a small scale guerilla war against Canada with some gun nut crazy people.
The window shifts so far to the right that the DNC accepts Trump as a viable primary candidate. MAGA switches over to the Democrat party in droves, and some elements of the media assist Trump in the primary. Trump somehow wins despite his opposition’s best efforts.
General becomes Trump ( D ) vs The Guy Who’s at War with Canada ( R )
Under such circumstances, I can see the Blue No Matter Who folks voting for Trump of their own free will in the general, because “he’ll die of old age soon anyway”.
Yup, all those folks withheld their votes, and now Gaza is saved!
What state was going to turn if all green party voters voted Harris?
Because you can’t name one, I’ll proceed to the next point: it’s the job of the party to court votes. That’s it. They don’t have another job. And when they fail in doing that, they’ve failed in their job.
A party blaming voters is like a sailor blaming the sea. The sea just is what it is. There is nothing any sailor or captain, or person looking from land can do to change the manner of the sea.
The voters are the way they are. You can hate the way that they are, you can wish they were different than how they are, but that doesn’t not change them. We told you this in 2023. You ignored us and told us that “the voters just needed to suck it up and vote this way”. But the voters didn’t, because that’s not how voters work. And by resisting calls for the party to change, you are doing the work of setting us up for further failure.
If you are blaming voters, an amorphous blob over which neither you, nor I, nor anyone else has control of: you are a saboteur of the effort to stop fascism.
It is politically illiterate to blame voters. When the sailors in board tell the captain “don’t go that way, there are rocks”, and the captain says "well the rocks better move, whose fault is it that the rocks didn’t move?
Libs would rather try to get millions of ordinary people to give up their most fundamental moral principles than ask one powerful person to exhibit basic human decency. They essentially treat politicians like gods, to be followed unconditionally. No form of democracy could ever work with such a submissive populace.
That’s if you take what they say at face value, anyway. The reality is a lot of them don’t want to pressure politicians about things like the genocide of foreigners because they don’t genuinely care. They just have to pretend to for rhetorical reasons to appease leftists. If a politician disagrees with them on something they actually care about, they may suddenly find their misplaced spines. Hard to say how many are like that, as opposed to the ones who are genuinely spineless.
You can’t expect the people who blindly vote for their favorite color to actually understand what an election is, let alone want to win an election.
They don’t care what happens in the oval office as long as it’s blue. Like how Biden didn’t actually stop the cages on the border, they just ignored it until Trump was in office. And then they pretend to care again as they say all Latinos are guilty of what the DNC chose to ignore.
Let’s not overlook Biden as a senator voting for increased police funding as well as making federal student loan debt harder to discharge while also being more predatory. Politically he’s still highly conservative just not AS conservative. At this point any point of conservatism is beyond reprehensible to me.
I won’t overlook it, neither did the people in the 2020 primaries before Biden was forced into the front runner, with the woman who called him out on his racist policies impacting her as a child as the VP pick.
Idk about the Greens, but Biden had 6 Million more votes in 2020 than Harris did in 2024. That’s a lot of abstainers.
Okay, take another step: how do you get those voters to have voted in 2024?
We’re going to run two experiments, @FiniteBanjo@feddit.online , which will both start with the following premise:
It’s August 2024, the night before the convention, and you are Kamala Harris’s campaign manager. You are just coming off the big bump in polling you got from naming Tim Walz your vp. So far, your polling has been meteoric. You managed to got from the low forties high thirties to high forties in weeks.
You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend, and a week of captured media going into the convention. You have three months.
The experiment (0, 1) is conducted by you answering the following questions follows:
0 You are not allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
1 You are allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
If you actually answer those in good faith, you figure out how to get those 6 million voters back, and perhaps also understand how to have not lost them in the first place.
Maybe we could fight back against the constant feed of misinformation run by Republicans, Billionaires, and Hostile Foreign Dictatorships? Yeah, I think thats how we get those votes back. We need DNC boots on the ground, door to door deep canvasing. Volunteering for the DNC is the most successful strategy to get the GOP out of power. It’s how we tax the rich, pass singlepayer, remove PAC money, punish bribery, and hold criminals at the highest level of government accountable.
You could at least pretend to try and answer the question in good faith.
You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend: What do you do differently in the Harris campaign, if not change her policies, that causes her to win?
And if you can’t propose a method to using the 1.5 billion dollar warchest to win without changing her policies then you have to concede that we were right.
Musk bought twitter for $44 Bn and idk how much TikTok costs the Chinese but it made $33 Bn in Revenue, the arbitrary $1.5Bn seems pretty inconsequential.
Personally I’d have done more grassroots organization, more paid and volunteer position openings, and remove that guy from the campaign team who said there wouldn’t be an unrealized gains tax: that guy sucks. Definitely don’t bring the Chenneys on stage.
Do you understand what a grass-roots organization is? By definition, you can’t helicopter in and create a grassroots organization. Are you going to stand by these statements here, in good faith, and argue that if Harris did these things, she would have won the election?
Because this looks like some thin ass bullshit. Tittering around the edges. I think you need to face reality.
Grass Roots means organizing from the bottom up. Bernie Sanders is often cited as a perfect example of Grass Roots, his campaigns are run by his team and the cooperation of many small groups and individuals, and likewise his funding comes from mostly small amount individual donations.
I’m not sure if she would have won if she had done those things, as I mentioned earlier the cards were stacked against her, the billionaires and foreign powers bought this election.
The options were Gaza destroyed but worst or Gaza destroyed but at least it was a Democrat instead. Not lesser evils when it’s still reprehensibly evil.
Gaza is saved! For Trumps new golf resort!
100% this. It’s all so tiresome to listen to those types, too. They really do think they are so very self-righteous and better than the “neoliberal shills”, etc. 🙄
If Harris wanted to win the election, they needed to listen to us and capitulate. It’s not more complicated than that. We gave the roadmap, we were informed, and the post mortems show us to have been right the entire time.
Harris ran a losing campaign. That’s an objective fact. We have a path to winning the election. Internet wide, apologists for Democrats chose to ban us, silence us, and wag their finger. Butt they didn’t have right of it. Their calculations were wrong.
We were litterally begging Harris to just fucking lie to us about her position on Gaza. Just fucking signal that she’d do something, anything to push back on Israel. She couldn’t even muster the most mediocre of efforts.
Then they lost the election.
And here’s the issue, and I’ve outlined this ad nauseum, and I’ll continue to do so until everyone understands: you don’t control the electorate.
You don’t have a choice in what people think or how they behave. And there are no functional mechanisms to move populations of people to whatever you think they “should” believe or how you think they should act. Moving populations is a decadal, generational project.
There is one path to winning elections: understand the electorate, and then move candidates into adopting those positions. You can’t shame, badger, or otherwise abuse voters into voting how you want them to. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t if you don’t like it. Trying to do so is counterproductive.
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world You said you never actually got any response from leftists. Here’s one. Why didn’t you answer it?
^ Well, I’m not sure if this is an actual question in good faith given this is coming from a banned account.
But, to answer it - I’m not sure if I said I never get response from leftists. Hell, I consider myself and many I affiliate with a leftist (despite all the arguments in bad faith that tend to kick off by calling everyone with even a slight disagreement a “shitlib” or a “neoliberal shill” and so on). If I said that, I didn’t mean it - what I meant is that I see less of them (online) since the election.
I have enough of the type of unapologetic unhelpful bad-faith types of “leftists” in my personal life even if all the online trolls/bots really did disappear immediately after the election.
I’ve had the conversation enough times and it’s nearly always done in bad faith and delusion. I’ve had it so many times that I could practically write out their responses anyway, so I don’t really see it going anywhere. In any case, I’m sure I’ll have it IRL soon enough as I have enough associates of the tankie archetype. It’s weird how much of the Murc’s Law media and reactionary centrist tropes they have adopted, that’s for sure…if I didn’t experience this kind of thing IRL, I’m not sure I’d even be convinced that all of these online characters were not just a form of online agent provocateur. I believe that at least some of the online people legitimately hold their views.
Bit weird how Darwin keeps ignoring you every time you prove him wrong. Even when pinged, he doesn’t reply to you. I’m sure there’s nothing weird about that.
Sorry, you didn’t instantly say you’d vote for no matter who they appoint without the consent of the voters, so you’re going to banned and ignored now.
Vote Blue No Matter Who! Even if they actively harm their own campaign, pledge to have a stronger border than Trump, actively enable genocide, and fail to keep promises that got voters engaged.
Sorry you don’t want to win, if you wish to keep Republicans elected, you can just swap party affiliation. You clearly don’t care about what Democrats want, only their corporate donors from the military-industrial complex.
You’re right. I don’t care about what the Democrats want.
I instead care about advancing Western Europe’s interests in the US.
Why Western Europe’s interests as opposed to the world’s interests? Western Europe is doing relatively fine, it seems to me that I have a greater responsibility to look out for the global poor, especially those who are suffering due to US intervention.
It’s because I have a high opinion of France, Spain, and Portugal. Especially Portugal.
But why should US politics be oriented towards helping people who are already wealthy and secure instead of people who are poor and vulnerable, especially when their situation is our fault?
It’s because I want a Western European style constitution instead. And I don’t speak Portuguese.
Do you think that supporting the interests of Western Europe is going to result in the US adopting a Western European style constitution? How do you envision this playing out, exactly?
The user above you seems to be advocating that we vote for the only opposition the Republicans have ever had with any chance of actually winning elections, so your statement doesn’t really make sense. You’re saying voting for the only other option is keeping them elected? Are you Bizarro Superman?
Harris could have stood in the middle of 5th avenue, and shot someone, and still not lost some people’s vote.
We had answers to get Harris elected. She and her working for free sycophants said that she didn’t need them to win. She lost. Her sycophants then went on to say the people who they didn’t need or needed to listen to cost them the election.
Again, sorry you don’t want to have the DNC ever win again. You can just turn in your I Voted sticker for a MAGA hat, there’s no difference in the end. Sorry we tried to help her win, not sorry we were right all along and were ignored.
So, once again, you’re saying the DNC advocates, us, are opposed to the DNC winning?
Careful. This kid will report you.
For breaking rules? Sure hope so.
With advocates like you, who needs Republican propaganda?
Vote blue no matter who, liberal!
I know I will.
I get the feeling that you would vote for Donald Trump if he switched party and the DNC was somehow okay with it.
Who do you favor? Donald Trump (D) vs Jefferson Davis ( R)? Or third party?
I get the feeling you would suck Trump’s dick if it tasted like candy and everyone was weirdly cool with it, but we don’t live in your wackass alternate realities. The differences between party policies is night and day, and Trumps antics would get him removed in an instant if it were up to every GOP and 20 DNC.
So you would absolutely vote for him if you saw “Donald Trump (Democratic Party)” on the ballot? Thank you for clearing that up.
What are you even talking about?
I’m talking about who you would favor if there’s a presidential election between Donald Trump’s third term, on the Democratic ticket, and a despicable fascist who gives a new definition to the word evil, on the Republican ticket. And some third party candidates.
Does Blue No Matter Who still hold? I just want to clarify how strongly you believe in “No Matter Who”.
Well, since the orange shitstain just sits in the “first bedroom”, eating KFC and watching Animal Planet and doesn’t actually have any convictions or positions of his own and the entire administration would actually be calling all the shots, I would likely vote for Trump in that case once in the voting booth. Trump was actually a Democrat until 2009, he could have the Dem nominee if all of this had played out a particular way in 2008 instead of 2016. That said, I definitely would have been trying everything to keep the DNC from picking Trump up until the convention.
I guess it depends on who was really running against Trump since a 140 year old confederate corpse wouldn’t be.
Right, that’s what I was thinking. I admit Jefferson Davis was probably a bad example, but I was trying to go for someone who is clearly worse than Trump. With the scenario of:
Under such circumstances, I can see the Blue No Matter Who folks voting for Trump of their own free will in the general, because “he’ll die of old age soon anyway”.
The ones who withheld their votes in the same action rubber stamped the construction of Trump tower in Gaza.
It wasn’t gonna get saved by the people that claimed there was no genocide and actively funding it
Blaming the voters would’ve worked, if it weren’t for those meddling kids, too!
Who else wasted their votes besides stupid voters?
Seahawks QB Matt Hasselbeck, that’s who.
RIP rain city bitch pigeons
You if you voted for kamala. What a wasted vote. Do better next time.
Oh yeah, remind me which third party held a significant amount of votes to rival Trump, if only Harris hadn’t taken that last 100 votes?