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But the Democrats said they had to support genocide for the voters.
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Democrats can only win the election if they support the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank
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The only reason Democrats lost the election was because far-left pro-Hamas single-issue voters handed it to Donald Trump by failing to vote for Kamala Harris
Listen, Donald Trump is the worst. The absolute worst. Therefore, Democrats should be allowed to endorse a genocide to win an election. Anyone who disagrees is basically Russian.
The only reason Democrats lost the election was because far-left pro-Hamas single-issue voters handed it to Donald Trump by failing to vote for Kamala Harris
And you definitely should not mention the part where Holocaust Harris still would’ve lost even if she received every single third-party vote, even including Libertarians who usually lean right. Blue MAGA is as hostile towards that basic fact as Red MAGA is towards… most basic facts.
EDIT: See? Downvotes for basic, verifiable math lol
Holocaust Harris still would’ve lost even if she received every single third-party vote
Obviously it wasn’t just the third party voters who betrayed her, but all the non-voters as well.
She ran the perfect campaign, but was stabbed in the back!
I mean, you didn’t do the math, why should we?
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The sensible liberal centrist position to take is “a bit of genocide”. So instead of sending 35 billion in military aid, you send 20. It’s called realpolitik, and it’s the adult thing to do.
That’s why they grovelled in front of Kissinger.
Wow! You mean that thing that a shitload of people were screaming warnings about has finally been heard? And only 18 months too late to do anything about it! At this rate, they might figure out that trump is a pedophile before he dies. I sure do have a lot of hope that future elections are gonna go well and totally not be ratfucked out in the open with no pushback of any actual consequence. I’m glad that there will be a stern letter threatening to file a lawsuit (that will never happen) due to armed CBP and ICE at the polls terrorizing BIPOC. Inspiring stuff, papa Schumer!
Also the think they told those during surveys to not include in reports 🙃
no fucking shit. idiots.
My surprised Pikachu meme died a while ago. Pretend I’m posting him here.
All the crummy neo-lib takes makes me regret having voted for it to begin with. I compromised myself for the sake of damage control and I’m furious about it. I consider a neo-liberal as no better than MAGAt because when the mask comes off, they aren’t.
We’ve seen the mask of humanity fall off, and we’re asked not to believe what we’ve seen with our own eyes. It’s absolutely disgusting. I’ve seen liberals call not wanting to support an actual genocide a purity test. I’ve seen them refer to billions in military aid for a genocide “not perfect” (the implication being “good enough for me”).
Now, finally, American fascism is turning inward. They finally feel even just 1% of the violence they’ve been meting out on the rest of the world for decades, under every single president since Eisenhower. They deserve all of it, and more.
Yeah, I often think about that post that goes something like, “Donald Trump has done more damage to the American Empire and its propaganda machine than the last few decades of leftist organizing.”
I don’t like it. But I’m not sure it’s wrong either lmao
Good thing we don’t all get what we deserve.
The neolibs are usually treating LGBTQ+ folks and immigrants as remotely human, as opposed to targets. Even if you find the two parties to be woefully similar on too many big issues, please remember that, for as long as we exist in the shit system where election day really only lets you meaningfully choose between these two shitty parties, the lives of disenfranchised and vulnerable people do sit in one of the areas of difference where your vote could change something.
Nah sorry, at some point it’s on the Dems to pick an electable candidate. People act like it’s just leftists being unreasonable but the majority of Dem voters are pissed at the DNC. Responsibility isn’t a one sided thing here, you can’t expect a dog to be loyal if you keep kicking it.
I fully agree that the Democrat party needs to get its shit together, or more realistically torn down and rebuilt. Just also saying that, when all is said and done and it comes time for the general election, I’m going to place my vote where it’s going to do the most to deny, or at least delay, authoritarians.
“Please endorse the systemic murder of tens of thousands of children so I can maintain safety and comfort without needing to push for a candidate who will maintain my safety and comfort without carpet bombing babies.”
Sorry, no.
Also, remind me, those photos of Border Patrol agents whipping Haitian immigrants at the border… which administration was that under again?
Remind me, why did Dems refuse to codify abortion protections when they had a supermajority under Obama?
Dems don’t treat LGBTQ / immigrants as human, they treat them as chess pieces. They just play them with a different strategy than Republicans.
I absolutely do not support the Democrat party writ large, and especially not on the willful disregard for genocide and other atrocities. Don’t decide for me that that is my stance, or put those words in my mouth and effectively tell other people that is how I feel.
My core point is that, Democrats seem to be less vocally approving/encouraging about stochastic terrorism against LGBTQ+ people, immigrants, and other marginalized groups, whether they are privately seeing them as chess pieces or human beings.
If one group is shouting that my cousins are subhuman trash undeserving of equal treatment and dog whistling support for people who advocate violence against them, and the other group is at least not encouraging the same violence, then my cousins would seem to be safer under the second group.
I advocate loudly for party reform or replacement and consider that to be the more important part of civic duty in this arena. When it comes time for an election, past when we can do a lot to change which two people actually have a chance to win a presidency, I will cast my vote for the one less likely to get my cousins killed.
If words and theater alone are sufficient to appease you, if the death of innocent human beings overseas is an acceptable price for the protection of those close to you, then that’s your prerogative. If that is the case, though, then I will not be quiet about how revolting I find your moral calculus to be. And I have no doubt that my nonbinary, immigrant partner would share in my disgust, doubly so if you feigned it to somehow be in her interest.
Do your cousins think that protecting them from harsh rhetoric is an acceptable exchange for the genocide of children? Or are you doing it solely for your own comfort? Because, while we’re sharing anecdotes, if it’s the former, then I suspect that my transgender, pro-Palestine cousin might like to have a word with them.
Jesus, you seem to relish in imagining my meaning to be so opposed to your own. Obviously words and theater enough aren’t alone. I think I made that clear. I also think we are done talking, since it doesn’t seem to matter what I say.
Indeed, I don’t think I can convince you that the deaths of Palestinians should take precedence over the hypothetical discomfort, or even danger, of those closest to you. I can’t convince you that all human beings are of equal value. You’re on your own there.
You don’t need to, I already agree with you on that point.
Neo-libs treat LGBTQ and immigrants as just another group of ppl to exploit for financial gain. Pretending they actually give a shit about anyone other than themselves is naive
Never said they gave a shit, just noting that - at minimum - they don’t seem to be shouting as loudly that they should be denied medical care, deported, etc. I will continue to do what is reasonably within my power, means, and capacity to work for a society that is fair and equal for all. If an election comes around that only meaningfully lets me choose between two piles of shit, I will choose the less smelly one rather than abstain.
Theuniparty requires unconditional support for Israel
Republicans support Israel. Democrats support Israel. Republicans are worse. Therefore, you must support Israel or the Republicans win.
No, shut up. We will not cancel your student debt. We will not expand Medicare or Medicaid ever again. In fact, we’re rolling back all those COVID extensions Trump signed, because we need to focus on the national debt. Progressive policies are TOO EXPENSIVE. And now I’m sending Israel another $10B to fight ISIS or Hamas or whatever, idk anymore.
If you keep complaining, I’m going to assume you’re one of those Bernie Sanders Chinese Communist bot accounts.
The dissent was widely known and broadcast — they chose their line. And it will cost us decades if not generations.
yep, I think the centrists think of it as a single lost election that they can just have a do over on next cycle. Many of the dem base voters they imagine will come back are third party for life now. People take supporting genocide pretty personally. Many on here like finitebanjo and givesomefucks want to pretend the DNC dems never supported genocide. But they did, and still do. Theres no take backsies or do overs on that.
I like to point out that Democrats had anti-LGBT+ beliefs, feelings, and I’m certain passed legislation for it then started backing off when it became hot button relevant. Which is good, but they are not the innocent poster boys/girls they like to make themselves out to be.
So we’re just saying things now huh
Provide evidence of statement. Watch them try to disagree with their very eyes. Orwellian as hell with the neo-libs in this post.
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The comment you were responding to.
I like to point out that Democrats had anti-LGBT+ beliefs, feelings
The video proves objectively that was true. Same with genocide today. The party doesn’t get to skate by ignoring genocide anymore. They must change or they will continue to lose. If you continue to vote for their continued support of genocide, it means you support genocide.
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Don’t pretend or white wash it, even Democrats were anti-LGBT+.
They still are, we all saw how Harris threw trans under the bus
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You can take your “both sides equally bad” and shove it you worthless scumbag.
Nope, because they’re the same side.
…Useless centrists whining about the outcomes of their own bad ideas as they steer the party off cliff after cliff. You know who saw Harris’s loss coming in the last election Halfsaleman? Everyone. Everyone but centrists like yourself as you cheerfully pulled the voting lever to support what you claim without proof was support for a “lesser, kinder, gentler” genocide. We’re all here in trumpland because of people like yourself.
You are delusional or a liar and your painting me as a centrist is cope or hollow propaganda. Eat shit.
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Yup, all those folks withheld their votes, and now Gaza is saved!
What state was going to turn if all green party voters voted Harris?
Because you can’t name one, I’ll proceed to the next point: it’s the job of the party to court votes. That’s it. They don’t have another job. And when they fail in doing that, they’ve failed in their job.
A party blaming voters is like a sailor blaming the sea. The sea just is what it is. There is nothing any sailor or captain, or person looking from land can do to change the manner of the sea.
The voters are the way they are. You can hate the way that they are, you can wish they were different than how they are, but that doesn’t not change them. We told you this in 2023. You ignored us and told us that “the voters just needed to suck it up and vote this way”. But the voters didn’t, because that’s not how voters work. And by resisting calls for the party to change, you are doing the work of setting us up for further failure.
If you are blaming voters, an amorphous blob over which neither you, nor I, nor anyone else has control of: you are a saboteur of the effort to stop fascism.
It is politically illiterate to blame voters. When the sailors in board tell the captain “don’t go that way, there are rocks”, and the captain says "well the rocks better move, whose fault is it that the rocks didn’t move?
Libs would rather try to get millions of ordinary people to give up their most fundamental moral principles than ask one powerful person to exhibit basic human decency. They essentially treat politicians like gods, to be followed unconditionally. No form of democracy could ever work with such a submissive populace.
That’s if you take what they say at face value, anyway. The reality is a lot of them don’t want to pressure politicians about things like the genocide of foreigners because they don’t genuinely care. They just have to pretend to for rhetorical reasons to appease leftists. If a politician disagrees with them on something they actually care about, they may suddenly find their misplaced spines. Hard to say how many are like that, as opposed to the ones who are genuinely spineless.
You can’t expect the people who blindly vote for their favorite color to actually understand what an election is, let alone want to win an election.
They don’t care what happens in the oval office as long as it’s blue. Like how Biden didn’t actually stop the cages on the border, they just ignored it until Trump was in office. And then they pretend to care again as they say all Latinos are guilty of what the DNC chose to ignore.
Let’s not overlook Biden as a senator voting for increased police funding as well as making federal student loan debt harder to discharge while also being more predatory. Politically he’s still highly conservative just not AS conservative. At this point any point of conservatism is beyond reprehensible to me.
I won’t overlook it, neither did the people in the 2020 primaries before Biden was forced into the front runner, with the woman who called him out on his racist policies impacting her as a child as the VP pick.
Idk about the Greens, but Biden had 6 Million more votes in 2020 than Harris did in 2024. That’s a lot of abstainers.
Okay, take another step: how do you get those voters to have voted in 2024?
We’re going to run two experiments, @FiniteBanjo@feddit.online , which will both start with the following premise:
It’s August 2024, the night before the convention, and you are Kamala Harris’s campaign manager. You are just coming off the big bump in polling you got from naming Tim Walz your vp. So far, your polling has been meteoric. You managed to got from the low forties high thirties to high forties in weeks.
You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend, and a week of captured media going into the convention. You have three months.
The experiment (0, 1) is conducted by you answering the following questions follows:
0 You are not allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
1 You are allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
If you actually answer those in good faith, you figure out how to get those 6 million voters back, and perhaps also understand how to have not lost them in the first place.
Maybe we could fight back against the constant feed of misinformation run by Republicans, Billionaires, and Hostile Foreign Dictatorships? Yeah, I think thats how we get those votes back. We need DNC boots on the ground, door to door deep canvasing. Volunteering for the DNC is the most successful strategy to get the GOP out of power. It’s how we tax the rich, pass singlepayer, remove PAC money, punish bribery, and hold criminals at the highest level of government accountable.
You could at least pretend to try and answer the question in good faith.
You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend: What do you do differently in the Harris campaign, if not change her policies, that causes her to win?
And if you can’t propose a method to using the 1.5 billion dollar warchest to win without changing her policies then you have to concede that we were right.
Musk bought twitter for $44 Bn and idk how much TikTok costs the Chinese but it made $33 Bn in Revenue, the arbitrary $1.5Bn seems pretty inconsequential.
Personally I’d have done more grassroots organization, more paid and volunteer position openings, and remove that guy from the campaign team who said there wouldn’t be an unrealized gains tax: that guy sucks. Definitely don’t bring the Chenneys on stage.
Personally I’d have done more grassroots organization, more paid and volunteer position openings, and remove that guy from the campaign team who said there wouldn’t be an unrealized gains tax: that guy sucks.
Do you understand what a grass-roots organization is? By definition, you can’t helicopter in and create a grassroots organization. Are you going to stand by these statements here, in good faith, and argue that if Harris did these things, she would have won the election?
Because this looks like some thin ass bullshit. Tittering around the edges. I think you need to face reality.
The options were Gaza destroyed but worst or Gaza destroyed but at least it was a Democrat instead. Not lesser evils when it’s still reprehensibly evil.
Gaza is saved! For Trumps new golf resort!
The ones who withheld their votes in the same action rubber stamped the construction of Trump tower in Gaza.
100% this. It’s all so tiresome to listen to those types, too. They really do think they are so very self-righteous and better than the “neoliberal shills”, etc. 🙄
If Harris wanted to win the election, they needed to listen to us and capitulate. It’s not more complicated than that. We gave the roadmap, we were informed, and the post mortems show us to have been right the entire time.
Harris ran a losing campaign. That’s an objective fact. We have a path to winning the election. Internet wide, apologists for Democrats chose to ban us, silence us, and wag their finger. Butt they didn’t have right of it. Their calculations were wrong.
We were litterally begging Harris to just fucking lie to us about her position on Gaza. Just fucking signal that she’d do something, anything to push back on Israel. She couldn’t even muster the most mediocre of efforts.
Then they lost the election.
And here’s the issue, and I’ve outlined this ad nauseum, and I’ll continue to do so until everyone understands: you don’t control the electorate.
You don’t have a choice in what people think or how they behave. And there are no functional mechanisms to move populations of people to whatever you think they “should” believe or how you think they should act. Moving populations is a decadal, generational project.
There is one path to winning elections: understand the electorate, and then move candidates into adopting those positions. You can’t shame, badger, or otherwise abuse voters into voting how you want them to. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t if you don’t like it. Trying to do so is counterproductive.
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world You said you never actually got any response from leftists. Here’s one. Why didn’t you answer it?
^ Well, I’m not sure if this is an actual question in good faith given this is coming from a banned account.
But, to answer it - I’m not sure if I said I never get response from leftists. Hell, I consider myself and many I affiliate with a leftist (despite all the arguments in bad faith that tend to kick off by calling everyone with even a slight disagreement a “shitlib” or a “neoliberal shill” and so on). If I said that, I didn’t mean it - what I meant is that I see less of them (online) since the election.
I have enough of the type of unapologetic unhelpful bad-faith types of “leftists” in my personal life even if all the online trolls/bots really did disappear immediately after the election.
I’ve had the conversation enough times and it’s nearly always done in bad faith and delusion. I’ve had it so many times that I could practically write out their responses anyway, so I don’t really see it going anywhere. In any case, I’m sure I’ll have it IRL soon enough as I have enough associates of the tankie archetype. It’s weird how much of the Murc’s Law media and reactionary centrist tropes they have adopted, that’s for sure…if I didn’t experience this kind of thing IRL, I’m not sure I’d even be convinced that all of these online characters were not just a form of online agent provocateur. I believe that at least some of the online people legitimately hold their views.
Bit weird how Darwin keeps ignoring you every time you prove him wrong. Even when pinged, he doesn’t reply to you. I’m sure there’s nothing weird about that.
Sorry, you didn’t instantly say you’d vote for no matter who they appoint without the consent of the voters, so you’re going to banned and ignored now.
Vote Blue No Matter Who! Even if they actively harm their own campaign, pledge to have a stronger border than Trump, actively enable genocide, and fail to keep promises that got voters engaged.
Sorry you don’t want to win, if you wish to keep Republicans elected, you can just swap party affiliation. You clearly don’t care about what Democrats want, only their corporate donors from the military-industrial complex.
You’re right. I don’t care about what the Democrats want.
I instead care about advancing Western Europe’s interests in the US.
Why Western Europe’s interests as opposed to the world’s interests? Western Europe is doing relatively fine, it seems to me that I have a greater responsibility to look out for the global poor, especially those who are suffering due to US intervention.
It’s because I have a high opinion of France, Spain, and Portugal. Especially Portugal.
But why should US politics be oriented towards helping people who are already wealthy and secure instead of people who are poor and vulnerable, especially when their situation is our fault?
It’s because I want a Western European style constitution instead. And I don’t speak Portuguese.
The user above you seems to be advocating that we vote for the only opposition the Republicans have ever had with any chance of actually winning elections, so your statement doesn’t really make sense. You’re saying voting for the only other option is keeping them elected? Are you Bizarro Superman?
Harris could have stood in the middle of 5th avenue, and shot someone, and still not lost some people’s vote.
We had answers to get Harris elected. She and her working for free sycophants said that she didn’t need them to win. She lost. Her sycophants then went on to say the people who they didn’t need or needed to listen to cost them the election.
Again, sorry you don’t want to have the DNC ever win again. You can just turn in your I Voted sticker for a MAGA hat, there’s no difference in the end. Sorry we tried to help her win, not sorry we were right all along and were ignored.
So, once again, you’re saying the DNC advocates, us, are opposed to the DNC winning?
Careful. This kid will report you.
For breaking rules? Sure hope so.
With advocates like you, who needs Republican propaganda?
Vote blue no matter who, liberal!
I know I will.
I get the feeling that you would vote for Donald Trump if he switched party and the DNC was somehow okay with it.
Who do you favor? Donald Trump (D) vs Jefferson Davis ( R)? Or third party?
I get the feeling you would suck Trump’s dick if it tasted like candy and everyone was weirdly cool with it, but we don’t live in your wackass alternate realities. The differences between party policies is night and day, and Trumps antics would get him removed in an instant if it were up to every GOP and 20 DNC.
So you would absolutely vote for him if you saw “Donald Trump (Democratic Party)” on the ballot? Thank you for clearing that up.
What are you even talking about?
Well, since the orange shitstain just sits in the “first bedroom”, eating KFC and watching Animal Planet and doesn’t actually have any convictions or positions of his own and the entire administration would actually be calling all the shots, I would likely vote for Trump in that case once in the voting booth. Trump was actually a Democrat until 2009, he could have the Dem nominee if all of this had played out a particular way in 2008 instead of 2016. That said, I definitely would have been trying everything to keep the DNC from picking Trump up until the convention.
I guess it depends on who was really running against Trump since a 140 year old confederate corpse wouldn’t be.
Right, that’s what I was thinking. I admit Jefferson Davis was probably a bad example, but I was trying to go for someone who is clearly worse than Trump. With the scenario of:
- The Republicans abandon Trump and instead support a young guy who openly advocates war with Denmark, annexing Canada, and nuking the fuck out of Britain and France. This individual has also been leading a small scale guerilla war against Canada with some gun nut crazy people.
- The window shifts so far to the right that the DNC accepts Trump as a viable primary candidate. MAGA switches over to the Democrat party in droves, and some elements of the media assist Trump in the primary. Trump somehow wins despite his opposition’s best efforts.
- General becomes Trump ( D ) vs The Guy Who’s at War with Canada ( R )
Under such circumstances, I can see the Blue No Matter Who folks voting for Trump of their own free will in the general, because “he’ll die of old age soon anyway”.
It wasn’t gonna get saved by the people that claimed there was no genocide and actively funding it
Blaming the voters would’ve worked, if it weren’t for those meddling kids, too!
Who else wasted their votes besides stupid voters?
Seahawks QB Matt Hasselbeck, that’s who.
RIP rain city bitch pigeons
You if you voted for kamala. What a wasted vote. Do better next time.
Oh yeah, remind me which third party held a significant amount of votes to rival Trump, if only Harris hadn’t taken that last 100 votes?
Next up: Dems working on secret report found Epstein and Trump were friends!
Not just friends! Best friends! Besties!
Huh. Maybe next time we tell them “supporting mass murder is bad even if the other side does it too” they’ll listen.
They won’t. They would rather lose and be controlled opposition. But one can hope for change.
Ya, no shit.
Who could have predicted supporting mass murder would look bad?
Funny enough. Last week they still are.
They’re still openly defending Israel.
Why would anyone waste their time studying something that’s blatantly obvious?
Can someone conduct a study to confirm that hot is hot and cold is cold?
Cause they get to pay themselves millions of donated dollars to do this study and then get paid millions more to come up with an Ad campaign to “fix” it
And that campaign, we need more Republican voters and to ignore the left entirely!
The only thing to blame for her defeat is the American republican voters who are too fucking stupid and selfish to not be complete assholes. There is always things one could have done better, not having done perfect is just reality.
There’s not being perfect and there’s supporting a genocide. She deserves the blame
So just like Trump? Harris isn’t the one planning on profiting from real estate development in the gaza ffs. That’s who Republicans voted for.
Doesn’t really matter what happens after if the original goal is the mass murder and elimination of a culture. If I was Palestinian I would’ve sat out the election. Its easy to complain when no one you actually know was being bombed in an open air prison.
Americans are complaining about ICE arresting children and shooting citizens but thats been happening in Palestine for decades.
One of the two options will get chosen. Abstaining only increases the chance the worse of the options for you is more likely. Being a single issue voter and not voting if that single issue isn’t what you want is irresponsible to yourself. Whoever wins will affect your life in a myriad of ways beyond that single issue and throwing away your influence over that, as small as it may be, is simply foolish. If you aren’t also participating in the systems that choose the candidates, nevermind finding and supporting politicians who do reflect your values, you’re doing a disservice to yourself.
There is no worse option than a genocide. And last I checked there was no primary last election. This was about the presidential election.
You folks who try to shame Arabs/Muslims for sitting out the last election get on my nerves. Refusing the false choice of youre ppls extermination and likening it to single issue voting spits on their struggle. Its the equivalent of telling a black person in 1968 that not voting Nixon because hes a massive racist makes them foolish single issue voters.
The issue and the demographic of the voter are immaterial. If you refuse to vote based on one issue then you give up your influence over all the other issues as well. You don’t have to like it or think it’s just, or fair, or right. It’s about whether you will use the political power you do have to influence the things that will affect you or not.
Being Arab or Muslim or black or white or Christian or athiest or young or old, or anything else, doesn’t matter in regard to whether you use the power you have or not.
Your diseased “lesser evil” dogma is how we got to the point where supporting the modern-day holocaust is framed as “not having done perfect”.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is life. Welcome to it. You don’t always get to choose your options and mitigating the worst is a responsibility. Trump was easily the worst, and also supports the genocide. But Republicans couldn’t seem to figure that out. Apparently just like you.
Weird, I didn’t choose either evil but I’m still alive.
Yes, I meant you risked death…
You said “choosing the lesser of two evils is life”. And yet I lived without doing so. Almost like it’s not an inevitable aspect of life. Almost like you cling to that narrative as a cognitive tool, something to contextualize your actions as inevitable and unavoidable in order to avoid the guilt you’re rightfully due for endorsing genocidaires to run the most powerful military our species has ever known.
Anyway, leftists are apparently such a powerful segment of the electorate that you blame us for Democrats losing. You know what that’s called in politics? Leverage. We can make you lose, according to your own narrative. Guess you better start listening to our demands unless you want to keep losing. We’re in charge, after all. You just said so.
“What do you mean by life, then?” Is what you could have asked but instead you wrote two paragraphs arguing against the strawman you created for yourself to play with. I won’t get in the way, keep playing with yourself.
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“No, it is the children who are wrong”
Children are stupid and ignorant, so yes, often wrong.
