Online threats to children are real, but the headlong pursuit of age verification that we’re seeing around the world is unacceptable in its approach and far too broad in scope — and we simply can’t afford to get this wrong.
To be clear, parents’ concerns are valid and sincere. Few people would argue that kids should have unfettered access to adult material, to self-harm how-tos, to social media platforms that manipulate them and expose them to abuse.
But it’s the very depth of those worries that is being cynically exploited. Age verification as is currently being proposed in country after country would mean the death of anonymity online.
And we know exactly who stands to gain: The same tech giants who built the privacy nightmare that the internet is today.
He has a vested interest in saying that, but he’s right, and it would be awful
They have to comply with court orders. You can’t run a business and ignore the government and legal system; they will throw the book at you.
Don’t use proton to do anything that could be considered a crime in the EU.
This sounds like something you should take up with Proton’s marketing: “Outside of US and EU jurisdiction”
Which is both correct, but makes them still subject to swiss law, and swiss law enforcement will comply with foreign requests - although it took some serious misrepresenting by the French by citing terrorism laws to get the swiss courts to sign the warrant, forcing proton to log the next IP the user used to log in. Had the user used protons own VPN or TOR to login, the resulting data would have been useless.
If Proton users try to sign up with Tor, they are asked for an email address, which Proton stores and turns over to law enforcement. Your complaint is legitimate, but you are speaking to the choir here, they need to know. At bare minimum, so they don’t get in legal trouble for misrepresentation (although I hope people here presume they have a higher ethical standard than legality)
It’s interesting what people expect of Proton Mail. I’ve used it for a long time but for only one reason really: their revenue stream is my subscription and not ads. I’ve never even given a second thought to all their encryption claims. Even with Proton Mail if I ever wanted to send a “secret” email I’d wrap the content in my own personal keys.
With respect to IP addresses of email logins, I’m surprised they ever claimed they don’t have logs. You’ve always been able to review the IP of a login through the web UI as far as I remember. Was the idea that that was also supposed to be encrypted?
Personally I’m OK with them complying with court orders, but I understand that “the definition of criminal is state defined” and that poses serious issues. It kinda seems like if you want to do something that could be considered criminal at some point in your life by your country you should consider something other than a 3rd party email provider for those messages. Signal would be a step up in that regard if you still wanted to use a third party.
It’s interesting what people expect of Proton Mail.
It’s quite mundane actually: people expect what they advertise on their front page.
Their advertising is a stretch at the best of times, and (as seen on my first link) so terrible that it needs to be removed at other times.
Lol, ok, fair.
I guess I see a lot of wiggle room in the marketing speak of their page and I haven’t actually “looked in to” Proton Mail’s claims in a loooong time. So I guess what I really wanted to say is that it’s interesting to me that people take that marketing at face value if they’re actually trying to maintain secrecy. I’ve always just taken it as a given that third party services aren’t particularly good at that, especially as they grow in complexity like Proton has. Signal has been easier for me to believe because of the singular focus and the reputation of the founder in the crypto community; although I guess he’s long gone.
It bothers me that we know that this bullshit has nothing to do with the kids and is probably being lobbied by the genocide gang and AI companies, even more that it has become obvious that the only value AI has is mass monitoring, but nobody abords the real issue. We are playing their book.
99.9% navigate the system and grow up perfectly fine, or fine enough. We shouldn’t have to completely surrender our anonymity for the tiny percentage that went wrong.
Before the Internet, some people got weird, and in the Internet era, some people are going to go weird. Age verification isn’t going to change that.
This isn’t about the kids. We all know it.
Kids don’t have unfettered access if they are supervised, lol. And age gating will fail regardless. So it’s a failure followed by another failure, sigh.
Indeed, unfettered in a literal sense cannot happen even with the most minimum supervision, but regardless of the threshold in parenting (I am not going to pardon parents responsibility on this, but good luck asserting 100% supervision), circumventions will always take place, so with more reason it cannot be used the “kids safety” argument to bring Orwellian levels to everybody’s lifes
just out of curiosity, what do you consider minimum supervision to be?
The theoretical minimum would be sharing any instant of their lives, during which they could not sustain an unfettered access to anything, not like I would consider it a decent minimum in any case (I was revolving around the “unfettered access” concept of the previous comment), but I cannot imagine how it would exists any threshold of supervision above which you can exclude any unfettered access at any given moment of their existence, risk of harmful exposition never drops to zero, so argue an Orwellian measure for the indiscriminate shake of their safety has no sense to me…
Clearly this man is a genius.
The nightmare trap of the Two Party System is that you can look at one party cozying up to Big Tech (Obama in 2009) and conclude the other party must be reflexively in opposition.
Trump was fully surrounded by Thiel goons before he’d even left office in '21. And the relationship only got tighter with his Elon Musk Bromance. But hey, if you’d just elected Kamala Harris and
Liz CheneyTim Walz to the White House, I’m sure nobody would be talking about how much of their cabinet was stuffed with Silicon Valley cutouts.It’s not like a cartel of trillionaires can buy up both parties at once, right?
Sort of, but my point is he made a specific point of praising a demented rapist and lauding the pedophile party as heroes. Silicon Valley cutouts that support Democrats commit the unforgivable sins of praising diversity or working to solve climate problems. They’re not surveilling hospitals for ICE. This guy loves trump because he believes trump has any opinion or knowledge of tech monopolies.
Tone deaf doesn’t cover it. If he sold shoes, it’d be one thing. But he jumped head first into the cesspit for no reason other than he believed it.
And so, even though our opinions on age verification coincidentally align, he can fuck right off.
he made a specific point of praising a demented rapist and lauding the pedophile party as heroes
He made a point of praising a President’s pick for the Antitrust Division of the DOJ. He didn’t praise Trump and he certainly didn’t praise pedophilia.
Slater’s tenure at DOJ was short-lived and unremarkable. So feel free to mock Yen on those grounds. But this has dick all to do with Epstein. It has nothing to do with the bloated ICE budget (which received bipartisan approval) or the assorts nightmarish cabinet appointments, many of which enjoyed supermajority support in the Senate (Rub’em All Out Rubio was appointed unanimously ffs).
he jumped head first into the cesspit for no reason other than he believed it.
He’s a Tech Goon and Trump had a ton of Tech Goons on his team. These people aren’t partisan, they’re corporate lemmings. By 2028, I’m sure Yen will be lining up to brown nose the incoming Dem administration. By 2032, he’ll be back on Team R, shocked at how the party that did everything Tech wanted has betrayed his customers again. Oh, and incidentally, insisting that the only way to protect yourself from Mean Old Big Government is by upping your Proton License to Double Super Secure.
And so, even though our opinions on age verification coincidentally align, he can fuck right off.
He’s endorsing the poison so he can sell the antidote.
He didn’t praise Trump and he certainly didn’t praise pedophilia.
Disagree. “Great job Mr. president!” is praising trump, and praising trump is praising pedophile protectors. It’s noteven a big leap, or unconfirmed rumors. We have multiple witness accounts to his actions and nothing has been done - legally- following the initial release of many documents.
It has nothing to do with the bloated ICE budget (which received bipartisan approval) or the assorts nightmarish cabinet appointments, many of which enjoyed supermajority support in the Senate
Also disagree. Eighth-graders know what trump is about. Andy Yen knows what trump is about. Corruption, fascism, incompetence. Yeah let’s send a hoo-rah tweet to my (whatever # followers)
(Rub’em All Out Rubio was appointed unanimously ffs).
Yeah that’s disgusting. Although I assumed he was just stupid and corrupt, not flat out evil as has revealed himself to be.
These people aren’t partisan, they’re corporate lemmings.
He’s both. There’s no non-partisan support of trump, he’s made sure of it.
By 2028, I’m sure Yen will be lining up to brown nose the incoming Dem administration. By 2032, he’ll be back on Team R, shocked at how the party that did everything Tech wanted has betrayed his customers again.
Yeah, that’s probably right, but all the reason I’m kicking him to the curb now.
Yeah, this was inexcusable. Trump’s been cozying up to the tech billionaires for years.
Crazy I was screamed at on Reddit for pointing out this guys hypocrisy. Glad I left his miserable platform.
Proton Mail Says It’s “Politically Neutral” While Praising Republican Party
lol
Anyone who could not see that Trump was going to extort business for his own personal gain was clueless to Trump and his cabinet of blackmailers.
Anyone of color giving support to White Nationalists is fucking insane and shows a complete lack of understanding of current US politics.
Yeah, but the vast majority are so far beyond clueless they voted for him, again.
Make social media unprofitable instead of this.
Basically don’t allow ads for kids and only show social media posts from their friends in chronological order instead of any fancy algorithm. Also make them liable for showing scams to minors. That kills most profit.
Great, now how do you tell who’s an adult?
They’ll just implement age verification anyway.
Or nobody verifies their age because it’s a hassle, social networks become unprofitable and die.
i barely used commercial social media (bsky excepted), but when australia brought in the the ID thing, I just didn’t bother going back. I used bsky a lot prior to the social media ban, but last time i logged in, it asked me for ID. I thought “fuck giving my ID to some random fucking company. My GOVT ID!”
Yeah right lol
People are already providing ID en masse for registration.
My parents have trouble typing on their password. Try having them do anything more complex and they’ll give up.
Facebook asks for ID nowadays, so does YouTube for adult content I believe. It’s been happening for years. It’s also easier than typing a password if you’re on mobile.
It’ll be normalised whether or not there’s laws requiring it :/
This would be awesome. I would buy myself a fake ID again! This time the other direction.
Kill it from the other direction. Make it illegal to algorithmically adjust a users experience to prioritize interaction regardless of whether that’s positive or negative. Ultimately that’s the problem with places like Facebook, they weigh an angry rant the same as a positive one, higher even in a lot of cases. Things that make people angry generate a lot more interaction than positive things so it drowns people in hate and fear. If you treat any interaction as a positive signal things just devolve.
How long before we get a Meshtastic style, decentralized internet?
While Meshtastic is great, I believe Reticulum has a more suitable approach for this: https://reticulum.network/
I definitely agree. Meshtastic has its uses but being a wide area network replacement is not one of them. Reticulum seems to be the mesh we all want and the technology is here, we just need to organize to make it happen.
Wifi HaLow is a bit closer to capable of early 00s internet speeds while reaching 1km, meshtastic and mescore reach 100x further and are good enough for text but not really capable of any media.
More people need to adopt both, here’s hoping.
What can I, as a regular guy, do to help make this happen?
I know you mean a Meshtastic style internet in general. But this is too fascinating to not share. Meshtastic is amazing:
Meshcore has worked far better in my exp although there’s been some controversy recently
I have to admit I am a fan from afar, I just enjoy keeping up with new devices and so on.
But I do love drama, so I’ll go check that out now!
Yeah some guy named Andy used the brand to advertise ai made software
Meshtastic does seem very cool
“Could” is a funny way of saying “are obviously intended to”. Stop playing around, call it out directly. Points where you must have your ID checked are, in fact, ID checkpoints.
If this becomes widespread, I just won’t use any websites that require it. There will always be ways around it or alternatives for people opposed to losing their privacy. There already are at least 2 Internets. There’s reddit and Facebook and Twitter and all the corporate news sites, and then there’s Lemmy and archive.org and the dark web and dev pages and independent websites and piracy. I find I rarely care about the former anyway. It’ll just mean being blocked off from all the corporate slop, which may be a blessing in disguise.
I am readying myselft for the end of internet since years. I guess we are at the end of the dead internet theory where they have to ID humans to be able to differentiate them from bots and be able yo target them more specifically.
Lol, is that why? Advertising dollars.
It’s tough for millennials, who saw the potential and the promise of the Internet.
It’s important to note the Arab Spring and the One Piece (whatever we’ll name it).
Even now the remnants of the forth estate, are literally vlogging news on tube sites and substack.
But yeah, Internet is ever inching forward to becoming TV or radio. Centralized information is power.
I maintain that we lost the Internet when we accepted asynchronous data connection.
This moron is also a MAGA appologist and enabler. I left Proton for other alternatives. They want to claim they are “politically nuetral” well if you really were you wouldnt be commenting at all on politics would you?
I must have missed a bunch. I only recall him saying he liked trumps pick for one role.
If you would have read past that part in the same post you could have read that he also thinks republicans are sticking up for the little guy and the democrats are in bed with big tech. After that he also never said anything to the contrary. I also use his product and I wish he were a better guy too, but he said what he said and stuck with it.
So yes, you are either misinformed by not reading past the first few words of his post or disingenuous by purposely leaving out the rest.
And afaik that was it. It has been blown out of proportion many times since by people forming opinions based on headlines. If there was anythung else I’d like to know too though
Oh no, there was much more.
Proton’s official Reddit account posted “Here is our official response,” stating “Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.”
Thanks for sharing, I don’t think this is much more. Corporate Dems are an issue and I wish I was in the timeline where Bernie became president. Saying Republicans are better (in 2025) is either extremely naive or insane. Either way, it does not give me the faith I would like to stay with Proton long term. Posting official stuff, pulling it back, now claiming neutrality… confidence is eroded enough.
I have the Duo plan until mid next year and see it as my inbetween from iCloud to self hosting most of my services. Currently trialing Mullvad for the VPN and it can keep up with Proton easily.
The biggest difference isn’t what was said (like you mention, it’s basically the same thing), it’s who was saying it (the company, not just their chief) and how it was said (officially, and then denied)
Proton VPN and Mullvad will likely have different use cases.
How so? They have differences under the hood, but so far I’ve used them the same way I would any VPN
Only idiots want politically neutral, anyways. I want clear biases for the people open and free forms of communication. That’s HIGHLY political.
Politically neutral supports fascism, always.
This whole conversation is such a false dichotomy. The laws can absolutely be written such that companies are required to suspend service to any suspected child without requiring ID to use the service.
But just like pollution and everything else we’ve let them push the buck to us.
The problem is that politicians don’t want to legislate enforcement/oversight entities as those would piss off their owners.
Democracies need to replace their lame duck politicians with ones that aren’t bought and owned by the shareholder class who also own the social media corporations.
The laws can absolutely be written such that companies are required to suspend service to any suspected child without requiring ID to use the service.
The laws shouldn’t focus on “harming children” so much, but on “harming humans”.
The big tech companies should be held responsible for the actual damage they are inflicting upon society, and their methods to artificially inflate “engagement” (or whatever the hell they call it) should be held to scrutiny. Whether or not the damage is inflicted upon an underage person or an adult, is merely a distraction.
Those assholes would love it if we all had to identify ourselves and prove our age, if it means they get to keep inflicting their shit upon us.
I agree but like that’s a much bigger discussion.
I think there is an immediate opportunity to mitigate harm in the long term that doesn’t require us finding a perfect solution to corporate-greed(capitalism).
Similar to how prohibiting tobacco sales to minors has drastically reduced the number of smokers. Ask anyone over 70 when they started smoking. Almost all of them started when they were young teenagers.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Can we make a new internet?
Yes, have a look at reticulum. No centralized addressing authority. No centralized domain naming system. Everything is globally routeable. It also just got support for transferring HTTP with RServer and MeshBrowser.
I always figured we would go to tor when this day came. But I keep seeing people mention all of these alternatives I have not heard of. Is this reticulum better?
Tor is if you can still access the Internet in general. Reticulum is a network that can exist outside the Internet physically, with long-range radio waves. Think Bluetooth, but the waves travel farther, and carry much less information.
Its decent…but VERY hard to set up. At least at the moment.
Ive played around and contributed a tiny bit over the last couple of years. You basically set it up piecemeal and then you have an actual decentralized server/client setup on a number of devices. Phones, lora, etc… can all work with it.
Ive sent myself some pictures/voice/internet packets via two heltek v3 at one point using nothing but the system and a laptop not connected to the internet. It does what is says on the tin.
But it took quite a bit of time and effort to get there. And while it was neat, no one else is really using it and things go down all the time. So I moved on to “easier” projects like meshtastic/core.
Tor/onion is MUCH easier than using reticulum but also is dependent on quite a number of internet nodes all being up and doing their thing. reticulum can run on the equivalent of 1W (or less) helteks.
Meshtastic sounds cool. Can one use it to host webpages like the WWW or Tor?
What is meshbrowser? Ive done work with reticulum but never heard of MeshBrowser?
I only heard about it a couple of weeks ago. It’s a chromium-based browser that will do regular HTTP over TCP but will also do HTTP over reticulum and you just enter in like http://reticulum_destination_here and it loads the web page. To host HTTP sites you need Rserver which is its companion.
How hard would it be with a bored cop or activist with a $100 scanner off Amazon to find the nodes for a local Reticulum network and knock them down, or identify the people hosting them?
Moderate. Reticulum can work over almost any medium. Ethernet, wifi, LoRa, HF, serial, paper qr codes, etc. If I remember correctly, real-time communication only requires a medium capable of doing 5 bits per second.
Yeah, we ( you guys ) should fork the internet.
There’s Meshtastic and the like ( I think ) but then again what we’ll build there? Another fediverse ? I don’t see the difference with what I have now.
Isn’t there already an au instance that is somewhat complying with age verification by asking security questions?
One of the Aussie communities AFAIK. Also here, outside of the fediverse, all mainstream porn sites require age verification. lol no thanks I’ll just VPN somewhere sane, wow problem solved.
If true, I’m not aware. Feels bad man.
There’s i2p and freenet as far as I am aware
Theres a big wide internet beyond apps and social media.
I miss stumbleupon :(
it was GREAT for new websites to discover.
that space is already pretty much dead, at least here in germany. If you create your own website, you need to have a valid legal notice. if you set up a web forum, you’re liable for everything that gets posted there.
This is basically FUD. Pick a different jurisdiction if your own country are assholes. Its very easy to participate in the small corners of the internet. Just don’t expect to commercialize it and its easy.
this is not fud. as long as the website is accessible in germany and is not purely private (content only accessible by friends and family), a valid legal notice is required. fines can be up to 50k €.
The positive thing about age checks is the technology that will come out to by pass the system.
I’m working on ways it right now. Aliexpress wants me to do a face check for some items. I’ve been a customer long enough to have been born and become a legal adult as a customer!
They don’t want my face for verification. It’s an excuse to feed their AI, which is already scary good at voice.
Could? Will.
Stating the obvious.
META was a major lobbyist for all of the state bills we’ve seen so far. There’s probably more. Or META is taking the lead because most hate them already, which provides a nice distraction from anyone else involved.
Tech and data centers want our data. What better way for a complete data set is there? I’m sure Palantir is in there somewhere.
