I can’t fathom how anyone is against free healthcare. CHILDREN have to go without healthcare FFS CHILDREN. How can anyone justify that?
Even within free market logic free healthcare just makes sense. It enables people to more comfortably quit their job to start a business or take any better job. It also allows people more freedom to choose medical professionals based on their merits rather than on who their insurer says they can use.
It’s also cheaper for everyone, and results in much better outcomes on average. It’s truly win/win/win.
The only losers would be the insurance companies that would no longer exist. And fuck them.
The stupid thing is that even this isn’t necessarily the case. Even in countries that have public healthcare, there are still private options for those who want “fancier” care. The true statement is that they would only be able to rip off the wealthy, instead of everyone in the country.
Even within free market logic free healthcare just makes sense.
It doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t maximize the short term profits of a health care business.
It enables people to more comfortably quit their job
No American capitalist wants this.
You can be hired. You can be fired. You can’t go around quitting without your boss’s permission.
That’s long term thinking you fool. How does that help my next quarter!? Think of my bonus!
I can’t fathom how anyone is against free healthcare
“We CaN’T aFfOrD iT! wE wIlL rUn OuT oF mOnEy!”
Every fucking time it’s suggested. Every fucking time, you get some clown screaming about how it costs too much and it will bankrupt the country and how health care will go away if you try to federalize it.
And under this government? Maybe they’re right. Maybe American business leadership would just rip the wires out of the walls anyways. Look at what UK politicians have done to the NHS, ffs.
It’s very possible that Americans don’t have access to health care because we are simply too greedy and cruel and stupid as a population to value it above carpet bombing the Global South.
Funny how there’s always money to bomb schools, on the other hand…
And to give to Elon Musk for him to lose. He went down from 1.45 trillion to 970 billion. Like what? Half a trillion dollars lost?
I don’t even use numbers like that in a fucking video game…
That’s the trading value of his companies that tanked though, not money spent.
He never had a trillion actual dollars.
“protect the children” mfs when children
Because to them, the fight against the Others is so profoundly tied to their core identity that they would choose a rapacious trillionaire or low rent pedophile mob boss to lead them despite OVERWHELMING evidence either would gladly see them dead for a nickel.
Anyone not of their inner circle (church, Trump worship, family of they accede to the previous conditions) are the enemy. And they don’t deserve even basic human rights. Unless they’re a zygote/fetus, in which case they get a pass until birth.
I don’t have kids so why should I pay for their healthcare
That’s how they justify it. They’re fucking ghouls
The problem is there’s a false scarcity. Healthcare is expensive for people in the US right now, so the idea of paying for someone else’s healthcare via universal healthcare doesn’t sound like a good thing, it sounds like taking the money you need for your healthcare to pay for someone else’s.
It’s NOT like that, but people have it in their heads that it is. And it’s very hard to change a made up mind when there are people rallying against it to protect their own private interests.
That’s no reason to not have universal healthcare.
Sure, some people think as you describe, but they are the minority. We’re supposed to be a representative democracy.
- 90% of Democrats want universal healthcare. (30% of voters)
- 70% of Independents want universal healthcare. (40% of voters)
- Even 40% of Republicans want universal healthcare. (30% of voters)
(many polls, pick your favorite)
bOtH pArTiEs think otherwise, unfortunately
Oh no I totally agree with you. Not saying it justifies it or even that the math makes sense, but it feels that a lot of times when you have people who dissent against universal healthcare the reason I stated is why.
They believe rights are a pie. And if someone else gets a piece of that pie, they will somehow end up with less pie.
Children can’t work. So they shouldn’t get any benefits actually.
The issue really seems to be old people. And where I live it’s a whole lot easier for old people to vote.
They dont care 🤷
I’d watch US shows where sometimes people would get fired on the spot in in a dramatic way and thought it was just artistic license until I realized Americans literally have no protections and can be fired at will for no reason at all. It is horrifying. What’s even worse is that people celebrate this as a “fluid labor market” , as if placing people under chronic insecurity is a virtue.
I have coworkers from other countries who came to America and asked me if the contract they signed was true - that they can be fired at will.
It’s incredibly embarrassing.
I wouldn’t call the US developed. There is development, with the sky scrapers, mega companies and billionaires, but there are also palaces built in South Africa, North Korea and Turkmenistan. North Korea and Turkmenistan have better infrastructure than the US. But I wouldn’t call insane poverty rates, insane inequality, autocracy, oligarchy, insane incarceration rates, corrupt government and legal system, institutionalized racism and still legal slavery any form of modern development.
Developed
Not civilised
And americans will tell you it’s because they are better or different.
Gotta fund the military somehow, mirite?
The “military power” reputation took a huge hit this year too. Really? That bs is why they forego all these benefits for their people?
But…but…hellfire missiles go brrrrrr?
I’m not even American, but what the fuck are you even talking about, no one’s saying that
You dont know this but some Americans are profoundly stupid. By some I mean more than any body can manage.
So just because you dont ride in those circles, dont think for a moment american exceptionalism isnt some sort of self defeating pride that will soon have my country on its knees.
You dont know this but some Americans are profoundly stupid.
Isn’t this the case basically everywhere? Is there a culture or country that doesn’t have profoundly stupid people in it?
I mean, we take it very seriously, though. There I go with american exceptionalism again.
Also not American. You don’t think there’s a perception that American is the greatest country in the West? It comes off thick with a lot of topics even discussed on the fediverse. A good clip that I enjoy watching every now and then https://youtu.be/wTjMqda19wk
Everyone knows about the American exceptionalism, but it exists despite these horrid humanitarian conditions, not because.
No one’s gonna say “yeah I’m happy with being forced to eat dirt, I’m superior to you, that’s why!”
I’m sure many Americans would crow about these more positive things if they could but think about those posts that unironically brag about how “X about to find out why Americans don’t have healthcare” while showing a picture of an airborne orphan crusher, or something.
It’s all part of their true grit machismo, like hell yeah most brutal capitalist hellscape imaginable, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. Honestly they revel in it.
It’s like Canadians and their cold winters.
There are plenty who don’t, but there are an unfortunately large number who do
They’re stupid, indoctrinated, uneducated etc. but they’re very real
I’ve had people from all over the world tell me that the US is the greatest country in the world,
They were all stupid, racist and had never been there
Hungary also did that under Orbán, but we were told once we will have enough “national billionaires”, the money will start to trickle down. When the billionaires arrived and we asked when the money will finally trickle down, we were told money is not everything, and we’re acting like “spoiled children”.
Honestly FOX News might be the organization, which helped the term “socialism” the most in the US. When you call every good policy “socialist” then people wanting that will call themself that.
It’s the abuse of the system, the tax hikes, the standard of care given vs the biased care we can exploit now and the amount of productivity lost is bad for the US. Why? Idfk, that’s just what they tell us.
So I guess the only thing we can do is try to cha ge at least one of them.
Remember Obamacare? The socialized healthcare system where everyone had health insurance? We should go back to that.
and the amount of productivity lost is bad for the US. Why? Idfk, that’s just what they tell us.
The US would not loose productivity at all. For any health care system it is cheaper to prevent somebody from getting sick, then to pay for the treatment. So countries with such systems have good reason to have strong environmental and food regulation for example. Hence people are less sick and can therefore work.
The US has pretty decent/good air quality compared to a lot of countries both developed and under developed. At least we don’t have to deal with what India, China or Brazil have to deal with when it comes to air quality. I mean it’s not the greatest there’s still people who live with air purifiers because of pollutants, toxins and generalized pollen but you can leave your house in every single state at any given time without choking or needing PPE.
Food could be better. Food here could be a lot better but you know what it is. It’s the sickening supply and demand. Think about it we get year round produce because we ship it in. There’s an Asian market that’s near me and a (half dead) stop and shop 2 blocks from it. The Asian market has in-season only produce and has an on site butcher. A lot of other countries I hear do the same as the Asian market and I still have no idea if it’s true but we have hydroponically grown food in the off-season.
The only areas in the US that actually rely on local produce are areas that have produce that they’re known for. Like Georgia Peaches, Maine Blueberries and Massachusetts/New York Mcintosh Apples and then those areas are all tourist and rely on tourism. The FDA Doesn’t give a fuck about our meat as much as we’d like to think, I mean our chicken wings can still have feathers and there’s known low quality butchers. Our beef supply is being cut like there’s no one even inspecting the fat vs lean meat ratio and everything that’s lean has a lower shelf life because its more, “fresh,” (after it’s been treated) and the odds of a grass-fed cut of meat smelling like fish is higher than a non grass-fed cut of meat which are usually starting to gray and those are unless you go to a good quality butcher BUT THEN you face a sourcing issue which they’re all known to get their meat from Costco or BJ’s.
Pork is absolute trash in this country, I’ve been trying to stay away from pork.
Nah, been going on probably before the banana republics. Soon as the people of the banana republic fought back, the American capitalist would cry socialism, then the American army would come and squash the uprising. Hey Mr. tally man tally me banana.
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Glad to see some political commentators catching on to this too.
No, there are approximately 190 fully capitalist countries, stop whitewashing capitalism. Capitalist countries also include: Afghanistan, Burundi, South Sudan, DRC and India. Stop with this evolutionist nonsense.
Yeah because capitalism is just how things develop without excessive government intervention to prevent it. It’s a lie to say capitalism is a choice. I guess technically you could say it’s a choice between buying food from a farmer or starving to death, but really that’s not much of a choice. The two biggest famines in history were cause by socialist countries taking direct control of the agriculture industry.
By death toll, number one was the Qing dynasty, very much not communist. Number 2 was communist China. You have to go all the way to number 11 before you hit the USSR.
The corrupt gop fuckers will recreate the commie folk devil that worked during the cold war, they will claim communism will end America they will turn voting for social democracy into national crisis
They are always lying
Americans also fall for it every time so that says a lot about the citizens
Americans, by and large, are, unfortunately, some of the dumbest humans to ever exist on this planet.
No doubt. Living here is to be surrounded by cynical monsters everywhere you go.
I’m hoping Mamdani can help shift people’s perspectives here.
Obama made Healthcare companies more money than any President before him. He could have given us a public option but the big Democrat donors said no.
America is full of uneducated monsters who are too dumb to have a functional democracy
It’s more that they’re diseducated IMO. To me, throwing vitriol at people because a decades-long campaign from the most powerful people on earth succeeded feels so similar to blaming the enslaved for not freeing themselves.
It’s really frustrating and it blows to see so many people harming themselves out of hate, fear, and illiteracy, but how are they to know better? All they see elsewhere is hate against them for something they’ve been trained to identify with; no human responds to that.
I’m not trying to come off as offensive to insulting. I think the above is worth considering and might be productive :)
ETA: I want to respond to a lot of these replies but I’m at work so it’ll be a bit. Lots of good conversation to be had :)
I’m American and I know better. What’s their excuse? Right and wrong are pretty universal. It shouldn’t take years of proper education to know not to hate someone for being born a certain way.
If you ‘know better’ then what’s stopping you from recognizing that not everyone is cut from the same cloth?
A black person raised to believe in the Nation of Islam might be more militant in their support of black rights — does that make what they believe right? No, the NoI is a cult that believes white people were born in a lab 7000 years ago (amongst other crazy bullshit). MAGA is also a cult. You should read up on what defines cults and what kind of people are susceptible to them.
I’m not exactly making excuses for them, I hate MAGA. Nuance here, however, is very important.
You nailed it; recognizing nuance is a critical skill
This feels very much like the booststraps the owner class expects you to clime the social ladder with.
It shouldn’t take years of proper education to know not to hate someone for being born a certain way.
No one said anything else. My claim was that there exists a well established, well funded, and effective institution that diseducates this into people that wouldn’t otherwise have it.
Edit: formatting
Okie dokie
a decades-long campaign from the most powerful people on earth succeeded feels so similar to blaming the enslaved for not freeing themselves.
Yeah, but those people all received a public education (like I did) and have access to all humanity’s knowledge at their fingertips. And they’re still profoundly stupid. That’s not a good look.
but how are they to know better?
Self education? I know a whole lot more than I did when I stopped having a formal education. I don’t think it’s right to just assume that people are sheep by default and have to have good educators to be reasonably intelligent. Especially in this day and age. It removes the expectation of personal responsibility that we should have for every adult.
Yeah, but those people all received a public education (like I did)
Consider the differences in public school quality of experience with regard to property tax, individual performance, class size, and elected school officials, state gov’t, and decade of education.
Not saying you went to a great school or were a top performer with extra curricular opportunities or whatever, I just want you to consider the range in education quality in the US.
Yeah, but those people…have access to all humanity’s knowledge at their fingertips
As well as disinformation. Without an adequate understanding of how to use it, as is prominent in those who couldn’t afford college or were raised before the proliferation of the Internet, this can do far more potential harm than potential good.
Self education? I know a whole lot more than I did when I stopped having a formal education
There are many, many, many life factors that can make this virtually impossible to people, particularly the poorly educated. Again, how are they to decipher right from wrong when wrong is intentionally crafted to discredit right?
For some factors, consider: Poor access to mental health medicine Lack of motivation caused by the above
40 hour work weeks Demanding home life No access to library or internet (or no knowledge of the utility of either beyond paying bills)
I don’t think it’s right to just assume that people are sheep by default and have to have good educators to be reasonably intelligent
This isn’t something we need to assume, and not something I assume. I believe this is widely understood as an explanation of why environmental factors are of the greatest (and best established) predictors of lifelong trajectory including continuing ed, economic success, and general success measures. (https://www.nber.org/papers/w14884) this is a link to the first article I found. If you’d like, I can send a link to my reference doc for a thesis I wrote that had over 60 studies with an aggregate 2 million lives covered with all the same finding, as well as 2 studies that debunked the leading study with the opposite finding.
I want to be clear that diseducation is not limited to schooling in youth but also inclusive of lifelong trainings, exposure to mis/disinformation, propagation, etc. One of the most popular narratives among right-leaning young men today is that higher ed is BAD. Not that it’s a suboptimal economic investment, but that it actively harms your ability to think for yourself.
One final thing, I’m not trying to say we should forgive and forget. This is a very real issue and needs to be addressed seriously, and there absolutely is individual responsibility at play. Nuance is critical, though, and like most things the truth is in the middle.
Part of the problem is it’s very easy to blame someone else for the state of the world and think their group does nothing wrong.
To me, throwing vitriol at people because a decades-long campaign from the most powerful people on earth succeeded feels so similar to blaming the enslaved for not freeing themselves.
It becomes more complicated when the campaign was created by propagandists from the 1940s and simply echoed through time by increasingly credulous buffons with more and more money.
At the same time, the “enslaved” keep signing up to join the military and the police, so that they can leverage their position to get access to the things they are trying to deprive everyone else of.
So it’s a cycle of self-imposed violence and poverty. And it is one that people accept reflexively because it hurts other people who are lower than them on the social order.
Not simply an issue of ignorance but of cruelty.
At the same time, the “enslaved” keep signing up to join the military and the police, so that they can leverage their position to get access to the things they are trying to deprive everyone else of.
At least in my hometown, people are trained from birth that joining the military is a high honor and one of the bravest and least-selfish things one can do. There’s a reason the military aims more recruiting effort towards teenagers than any other demographic, with 40% of the entire military (not just of new recruits) being under 25: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547615/figure/fig_3_2/?report=objectonly
So it’s a cycle of self-imposed violence and poverty. And it is one that people accept reflexively because it hurts other people who are lower than them on the social order.
Partly, yes. Keep in mind my original comment was in response to another, not a holistic self-standing claim. My opening sentence was a comparative, not a declaration of absolute fact.
Also to be clear, my use of enslaved was in reference to slavery in the USA, not the military which is an entirely volunteer (yes, the word volunteer is a heavy lift) force.
I agree with you mostly but don’t agree in calling people “diseducated”, I think it removes too much personal agency. Undermining education and replacing it with religious devotion is most definitely a goal of fascist wealthy class but we aren’t there yet.
Public education doesn’t make someone mentally incompetent, so no need to infantilize them. This “hate, fear, and illiteracy” are all choices they’ve made to identify with.
No one is born MAGA, they choose it for themselves. Their lack of self-discipline and unable to delay gratification and propensity to choose the path of least resistance may be preyed upon by the system but they always have a choice.
Its very similar to the food system in this country, it’s all engineered to feel good and make you addicted and overconsume. You still have the choice to eat less and exercise more but it’s hard. Some people are also predisposed to falling into it, so I do think you make a good point even if I don’t fully agree
I appreciate your response, it’s well written and considerate.
I want to clarify that my use of the term diseducation is not primarily directed to public schools en masse, but rather the increasing role platforms like TikTok, television, and ‘alternative’ ‘sources’ of mis/disinformation play as a voice of authority in many areas of life. To me, disinformation and diseducation vary in that disinformation is intentionally misleading/false facts about a topic to form a particular stance such, whereas diseducation primarily affects a way of thinking or conducting “research” to yield more results over time. For example, I believe a religious take on something like creationism to be disinformation as it pertains to a single set of facts on a single topic, but I believe a religious framing of things like the origin of sin and human nature to be more diseducation as they affect an individual’s framework for understanding that branches beyond a particular topic. Probably not the best example; I had a long day at work
I may be misinterpreting you a bit still, but if I reframe diseducation as propaganda, then I completely agree with your point. And it also presents a challenge we will face in perpetuity in the future. The technological progress of the internet has had an enormous positive impact on humanity but also comes with an enormous human cost as the worst of us weaponize it to gain money and power.
No doubt about that.
The beauty of a library is most librarians love their job and are altruistically motivated, which can help when they spot someone regularly checking out sketchy stuff. For example, “The Prince” by Machiavelli being checked out by some 22 year old would elicit a small conversation at the counter about why he’s a bad person to learn from. Those types of small guiding interactions that encourage openness in thought don’t exist on the internet. The internet is also entertaining enough to find its way into influencing people who aren’t as likely to have a conversation like that at a library in the first place. There’s a whole list of small things like that which have previously made access to info more likely to be positive that simply aren’t in place on the internet, and it adds up a ton.
I need sources.
The Index of Economic Freedom is created by the Heritage Foundation, which should tell you all you need to know about that as a source.
That is the most dystopian American-sounding thing I’ve heard all day, especially considering the source.
In this context I expect that “Economic Freedom” means “unregulated, social darwinist, robber baron playground, law of the jungle laissez-faire capitalism.”
It’s certainly does. Thank you.
I need sources
How dare you not to believe a random anon
27 countries? Which ones?
It’s kinda why these types of posts should probably be discouraged. Posts like these should have sources.
To be fair they did say they had the lowest literacy rates
My country has all of that (healthcare/education are basically free). Workers rights are protected and stuff but taxes here are really high compared to the U.S.
Good question! The report is here but there’s no such list that I could find.
https://static.heritage.org/index/pdf/2026/2026_indexofeconomicfreedom.pdf
Freedom to starve
Freedom for children to starve until they develop severe lifelong disorders and mental deficiencies.
Pull your bootstraps up harder!
It’s not socialism
Bro, it’s socialism.
Some of it is national socialism, so maybe don’t get too enthusiastic about how the Brits segregate out their health care services or the Germans treat unemployed immigrants or the French handle non-native speakers trying to form a union.
But all of this has socialist economic organizing at its foundation.
Socialism refers to collective ownership of the means of production. Social democracy refers to a capitalist market economy supplemented by welfare programs, labor protections, and public services. The two terms are not interchangeable despite frequent misuse on the internet. You are describing and advocating for social democracy not socialism.
The two terms are not interchangeable despite frequent misuse on the internet.
The systems exist on a spectrum and implementations vary heavily by region, culture, and material capacity.
You are describing and advocating for social democracy not socialism.
I’m describing nationalized health care, which is socialist in character. I’m not advocating for any system in these posts, merely warning that nationalist tenancy can lead to segregated provision of service in an economy model.
The last person I engaged with in this sub tried to convince me that slavery is perfectly legal and universally practiced throughout the United States by every state and every institution. Feel free to look through my comment history if you’re curious. The man was clearly not arguing from a rational position.
As a quick summary, he was claiming that the exception clause in the 13th amendment is effectively a blanket authorization for chattel slavery. It isn’t. The Constitution contains numerous other amendments that establish and protect the rights of incarcerated people, even while they are serving sentences.
That said, this can go one of two ways. I can simply tell you that you’re mistaken and leave it at that, or I can go point by point explaining why, with sources and supporting evidence. I’d rather not do the latter because it’s a substantial amount of work, and I don’t know whether you’re interested in an actual discussion or just an argument.
Socialism is not a spectrum. It is, fundamentally, the public ownership of the means of production. Nothing more and nothing less.
Universal or nationalized healthcare, by itself, is not socialism. In most countries with universal healthcare, the means of production remain privately owned. Healthcare is financed or subsidized through taxation, while private hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, and medical practices continue to operate alongside the public system.
I also don’t understand why people advocate for socialism specifically. It has never demonstrated a consistently successful long-term track record. Countries that have attempted to organize their economies around it have generally struggled with inefficiency, poor management, and authoritarian tendencies.
If what you actually mean is social democracy or democratic socialism, that’s a different discussion. Those systems are broadly compatible with market economies while supporting robust social programs, and those are approaches I generally support.
So my question is simple: why do you support socialism specifically?
It’s not actually though. you’re confusing nordic welfare states for socialism, there are even variants of socialism like market socialism with none of these.
Socialism is strictly about worker owned means of production.
I find myself correcting this misconception constantly. It is alarming how many people either don’t know or don’t understand what socialism actually means.
People routinely label any government subsidy, welfare program, or public service that benefits the population as “socialism.” That is not what the term means. In political and economic theory, socialism is fundamentally about social or public ownership of the means of production, not simply the existence of government programs.
I suspect the persistence of this misconception is a combination of confirmation bias, the Dunning–Kruger effect, and simple stubbornness.
you’re confusing nordic welfare states for socialism
Nordic states reorganized themselves from feudal agrarian military economies into industrial social welfare economies over the course of the late 19th and 20th centuries. Their party politics and bureaucratic reorganization was explicitly informed by socialist theories and economic models devised during that time.
Socialism is strictly about worker owned means of production.
Strong unions, state owned industries, and Democratic governance gives working Scandenavians direct say over and profit from their local economies
It being inspired by socialism doesn’t change the fact that the workers don’t own the means of production there and it is therefore not socialism. Them having more say because they have unions is not the same.
workers don’t own the means of production
Workers control the means of production through the democratic state
they don’t though, they regulate it and apply some pressure, but these are still privately held, socialism is always in contrast to private ownership.
socialism is always in contrast to private ownership
The Nordic Model is public ownership of high value industry (most notably, the O&G industry). They also have universal healthcare and free education, which come as a byproduct of state owned and operated medical centers and schools. And strong union membership puts a public leash on private enterprises at the level of direct worker action.
“The government controls around 35% of the total value of publicly listed companies on the Oslo stock exchange, with five of its largest seven listed firms partially owned by the state.[34]” good, but not socialism. Free healthcare and schools are not related to socialism.
It’s how they keep people under control. Keep them dumb, desperate and distracted. Now wonder the US has the best entertainment on the planet.
Except if you actually toss folks a bone from the rich people’s table they’ll actually defend capitalism for you. I’m actually shocked there hasn’t been a revolt already, it’s not like the system is working for most people who labour under it.
They’ve convinced half the population it’s their own fault they’re poor, and convinced the other half it’s brown people’s fault they’re poor.
The phrase “true and fully capitalist” is a sentence incongruent with historical materialism. Mode of production is not about purity of ideology. It is about how things are made.
