Good. Now let’s recognize it everywhere else and stop recognizing israel.
Not recognizing states that obviously exist is extremely silly.
Yeah. exactly why Palestine should be recognized. israel is, however, a european invention and terrorist colony.
The first part applies to… Most of the world outside of Europe?
The second part applies, to lesser degrees, to a large part of the world. Such as the USA.
What even is this argument. Israel’s not a state? Well fucking great, so following that logic which state should we hold responsible for Israel’s crimes then?
Europe’s colonial past is a whole-ass subject but amongst all the potential ways to try to make up for it, “stop formally recognizing former colonies because we fucked it up too badly” is one of the worst takes I’ve heard.
The second part applies, to lesser degrees, to a large part of the world. Such as the USA.
🤔 🤔🤔 🤔🤔 🤔
state held responsible? PEOPLE, individuals, yes. People who are running that terrorist shitshow. Members of various places around the world. And yes. That includes a lot of people. Sanctions on a state never work. People need prison. for crimes against humanity.
Stop pretending it is ok that israel exist as a recognized nation; it is younger than some of the people still living there!
So there are two interpretations I could make of your comment, one of which is more charitable than the other.
- You are using the Chinese and Israeli playbook of weaponizing statehood recognition as a value judgement. That is profoundly problematic, both on a practical and a philosophical level. De-humanization should not be a tool we have to use on our enemies. Our moral high ground should speak for itself.
- Your are dog-whistling for the genocide and/or deportation of all Israelis. In which case our conversation is done here.
To be clear, Israel is committing genocide and every single member of its government and of the IDF should be tried at The Hague. But laws and international order exist for a reason, and trying to circumvent them like this is a very bad look that Israel has been rightfully criticized for for decades.
where do I mention a people should not exist? never.
the state itself was created by a group knowing full well they would need genocide to make their state. they call it, these days, “mowing the lawn.” the criminals need prison and the working class people who just want peace deserve it. in Palestine.
the tricky part of these convos is not conflating the nation state, israel with the Jewish people. Or zionism with the Jewish people. Or the state israel with the followers of Israel.
hope that helped.
So no Israel, just Palestine? That would leave Israelis a majority population in Palestine. Do you expect Israelis to magically not outvote the Palestinians, or are you proposing an autocracy or an apartheid system stripping Israelis of their voting rights?
I would also strongly suggest you do some reading on the factors leading up to the Rwandan genocide. A “just” peace isn’t enough; after generations of life under apartheid, there are no easy or quick paths to lasting peace. I won’t commit the hubris of pretending I have a definitive solution, and I think it’s important to underline that as outsiders to the conflict, the best we can do is offer to safeguard peace. That’s what the Two-State Solution was meant to do, that’s what arms sanctions are meant to do, that’s what the threat of economic retaliation would be meant to do (granted each with their own significant shortcomings). Denying the practical existence of either Israel or Palestine is antithetical to building a path towards lasting peace and a meaningful international effort towards safeguarding said peace.
For a practical example, assuming a peace treaty ever gets signed, sending UN Blue Helmets would be diplomatically easier if all parties involved recognized Palestine and Israel as sovereign states. Even if that all seems like a moot point right now what when neither Israel nor most Western nations are actually looking forward to peace.
You don’t have to think Israel should exist. But what good does it do to pretend they don’t when they obviously do?
I am not speaking of a “they”, but of a “what.”
israel is a group of invasive terrorists who, for almost a century now, or more depending on inclusion of zionism, have invaded a land that was already a nation on its own and already recognized by the world.
Isn’t a group a “they” and not a “what”. Israel is a nation of people who sees themselves as Israeli. Entire generations are born there and consider that land their home. You can’t be born a terrorist.
It’s possible in the future to build some kinda secular Haifa Republic but this war has made that an incredibly utopian prospect.
It’s not clear what position you advocate except the continuation of war.
so where was that logic when palestine was literally invaded by a group of europeans calling themselves zionists? or europeans claiming some sort of “british mandate”?
revert it to palestine. it’s what it was before our grandparents generation invaded.
Like seriously? Who puts Liberty in their username? Nations exist to oppress and enslave us. Liberty… What a fucking joke.
You can be an anarchist if that’s what you believe is best. But belittling people who don’t think like you is stupid and childish.
some of us are already anarchists.
I’m sure. So?
Did I give some indication that I disagree with that idea? Lol
I find that “recognition” is just a tool that powerful nations use to oppress less powerful polities. That’s why I am arguing against it.
There’s no contradiction between this argument and anarchism. As I said elsewhere in the thread, I don’t believe states should exist. But giving the US, China, and other imperial powers the right to decide which ones are acknowledged or dismissed is part of the problem.
States only exist in our minds.
And our legal system.
Ending borders is a noble ideal but it’s not currently practical. People need many of the services their country provides, like healthcare, elderly care, pensions, unemployment assistance etc.
With no national boundaries, and no alternative system in place, society as we know it collapses.
The legal system also only exists because we wrote our thoughts down. It’s barely more real than a border.
The legal system also only exists because we wrote our thoughts down.
so does math. still nobody would argue that math is wrong or arbitrary because of that
math exists outside of humanity though. it is a priori. nation states exist because some people decided to enslave others.
well i guess law was originally derived from people’s ambition towards power and society’s need to still be organized. that’s a universal phenomenon, even if you encountered an exotic animal species on another planet, i reckon.
that’s what makes it more universal than you think.
a lot of details in our law are arbitrary, but so is math notation and even a lot of conventions that we use (consider 2π = 6.28 instead of π = 6.28). still, the core of the field is universal, i believe.
There are and have been many different legal systems throughout the world and history. The one we’re familiar with is from the Romans - hence all the Latin legal terms - and was spread by colonialism.
It is nothing like math, which was discovered independently by various cultures around the world.
For more details read chapter 7 of David Graeber’s “Debt”
Non tangible things are still real. Families are real.
The creation of complex systems is uniquely human and is what allows development and progress.
Without these systems, laws and things including incorporatng non human entities has pros and cons. Development of healthcare and increasing longevity and increased food production, sanitation and reduction in hunger are a benefit. War and genocide are a problem. However, wars still happened before the introduction of borders. See Norse vikings, Roman empire creation etc.
However, wars still happened before the introduction of borders
The concept of borders did not exist yet but the earliest wars was definitely about territories control for accessing more natural resources . It’s basically the same
This implies that the resources the people of Nataruk had at the time were valuable and worth fighting for, whether it was water, dried meat or fish, gathered nuts or indeed women and children. This shows that two of the conditions associated with warfare among settled societies—control of territory and resources— were probably the same for these hunter-gatherers, and that we have underestimated their role in prehistory.
Yes, of course. However, look at even ancient Greece, and legends of war for troy about love. The concept is older than the concept of countries. War is always about resource allocation, of you include people as a resource, which they are on a societal level. The designation of borders and countries is also partly about resource allocation.
They are inter-subjective realities. As opposed to subjective realities - the sky looks blue to me - and objective realities - the sky is blue because of the refraction of light and varies in color due to atmospheric conditions.
Realities nonetheless.
Laws exist because we say they do. Society and people follow patterns because of these laws. Abolishing these laws and borders would lead to societal breakdown without an alternative system to replace them.
Families are also constructs, borne of genetic reproduction. however we now understand them to include marriage and adoption and blended families. All constructs. All legalized also.
Good, civilization should collapse. I want the human species to go extinct! Preferably before we wipe out the rest of all the animals and plants! Fucking pathetic humans.
States are a…state of mind
Lol so I agree with you 100%. There is a strong case against the recognition of any states on that basis.
But, so long as we have a legal system that functions on the basis of this social construct, the idea that we should capriciously decide to recognize or not recognize various states doesn’t serve any practical purpose that I can see. Especially when they, as a matter of fact, do exercise authority over a given territory.
Yes, as long as the people with guns say I must believe in states I will pretend to believe in states.
Like a toddler of the corn with an imaginary friend.
Not recognizing would mean to not have any treaties with them, no general Visa rules, to limit trade, obviously no weapons shipments, denying port for any ships delivering arms to a non state actor…
Why? Do you actually believe states have rights?
States are invented, lines are drawn on maps and people are divided by elites, it’s silly to insist that a genocidal ethno state should simple continue to exist because it already exists.
We don’t want a two state solution, we want one state where everyone is treated equally regardless of religion.
No, I’d rather see them abolished. But they do exist, and allowing the US or Europe to decide which ones are acknowledged is a big problem in today’s world.
People who exercise their own autonomy should have that autonomy acknowledged. Full stop. Pretending it doesn’t exist is harmful, even if that autonomy is being used to hurt people.
Israel may have been a mistake in 1947 but there is no point in not recognizing them. They are there, they exist, you can’t undo what happened in 47.
Of course we can. We can stop funding them financially and militarily, we can stop doing business with them, and we can refuse their citizens travel, until they stop genocide and end apartheid.
You’re pretending like this isn’t common place already, it’s just unfathomable that it can happen to Israel for some reason?
That has nothing to do with “stop recognizing them as a country” and the west loses more by not allowing citizens travel (because people wouldn’t be able to go to holy sites, it works both way).
And man, the EU can’t even properly sanction Russia, do you really think they care about the middle east at all? Specially when not even the countries around care about Palestina.
Pretending it doesn’t exist is harmful, even if that autonomy is being used to hurt people.
What? What is this “pretending”? What do you think we’re talking about? And what makes pretending Israel isn’t a state, if that’s what you understood being said, harmful?
I’d rather see them abolished
That’s what we’re talking about. Let’s abolish Israel, and create a new state for all the people, historically we’d call that Palestine, but I’m okay with coming up with a new name.
Not good at all. No mention of Palestine living in security like Israel. He ask for Palestinians to be completely demilitarized before having real assurance that Israel will end occupation completely , there is no mention of how the two state solution would be accomplished and what will happen if Israel refuses
IMO Israel forfeited their right to a 2-state solution. They should not be recognized as a sovereign state because they’re foreign occupiers.
israel. should. not. exist.
This. Normally, it’s the Messiah who is supposed to announce the creation of Israel, and I still haven’t seen that. And there’s nothing in the texts to indicate that Israel should be in Palestine; it could just as easily be on the surface of the sun.
Took fucking long enough
In France, they repressed palestinian strike, canceled meeting and media defended Israel, he told us he won’t arrest Netanyahu, despiste the CPI decision. There is so many things wrong.
Even if he does it, i don’t trust him, he could act long before.
But does that mean they’ll recognize the genocide?
It’s like saying they’ll recognize the house but won’t acknowledge that it’s on fire.
It’s a step at least. If Palestine is recognized as a state, then it’s no longer an “internal affair” that Israel is engaged with, but instead against another sovereign state that has the right to defend itself and freely negotiate with other nations for aid and support.
It’s just gaslighting and fooling people.
Palestinians already has the right to defense based on UN general assembly 37/43, un general assembly resolution 2625 and Article 1(4) of the Geneva Protocol I. Even
If you read the official document written to Traitor and Israeli asset Abbass you will see that it talk about right to Israel to live in security but not for Palestinians, they ask to demilitarize all Palestine without any security guarantees and a vow to stop the occupation .
We all know that the USA will never allow Palestine to be recognized anyway. Even it does, countries don’t have to wait for Palestine to be recognized to do their obligation and sanctions Israel state wide and stop any military collaboration since they signed genocide and Geneva conventions
The USA and Israel will always try to stop any aid and support to reach Palestinians
As tens of thousands of Gazans starve to death this week…
Send troops to stop the fucking genocide!
Unironically, admitting Israel, Palestine and Lebanon into the European Union might actually be the solution to this whole fucking clusterfuck.
Edit: major major reforms should take place of course, and Israel should dismantle apartheid and pay reparations, while Lebanon should dismantle the sectarian dysfunction of their government, but as a long term horizon this region needs the wildly successful EU model of peaceful pacification more than any other region in the world.
Unironically, admitting Israel, Palestine and Lebanon into the European Union might actually be the solution to this whole fucking clusterfuck.
Only if the EU disarms Israel and restores the '47 border in the process, then prosecute the IDF leadership for war crimes.
Otherwise, you might as well suggest we admit Ukraine and Russia to the EU to settle that fight as well.
Membership requires that candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights, respect for and protection of minorities, […].
Yeah, that’s not going to happen.
There is only one solution to a Fascist state like Israel and that is dismantling its entire government.
I doubt that would ever happen anyway, but Britain and Ireland were both in the EU for a long time before they actually struck a peace deal in the Good Friday Agreement.
I know, the EU was also supposed to be the solution to the Cyprus occupation, and that didn’t work either.
I’m not saying that the EU itself is the solution, but that the horizon of the EU, or at least something similar (a MEU?) could play that stabilizing role.
Ireland’s in the EU since 1973
But the violence carried on until 1998. Just them both joining the EU wasn’t enough. It wasn’t genocide levels, but it took a lot of work from both sides to get the bombs to stop.
The EU struggles enough with keeping Hungary and Poland in line. Now imagine taking on countries that have been at war (or at least a cold war) for three quarters of a century.
Don’t get fooled . There is no mention of Palestine right to security and self defense. He ask for Palestinians to be completely demilitarized before having real assurance that Israel will end occupation completely , there is no mention of how the two state solution would be accomplished and what will happen if Israel refuses
Cool, now pay reparations to Haiti.
Are you out of touch?
Since France has at no point paid reparations to Haiti to my knowledge, no I don’t think so.
Are you talking about Napaleon? I genuinely do not understand what century are you living in, because modern France never invaded Haiti and houthis are not legal body of Haiti.
Huh, so you just don’t know the history. Fair enough. Here’s the Wikipedia article on the heinous debt that France forced Haiti to pay - at literal gunpoint - for daring to free themselves from slavery and French Colonial rule. They pulled all sorts of scummy tricks, like forcing them to use French banks and to take out loans to pay the debt, which of course resulted in more debt. It took over a century for the debt to be paid, and was a transfer of a huge part of the wealth of the entire country directly to the French rich (at some points this constituted FORTY PERCENT of the total income of the country). It severely impacted the development of Haiti over the last two centuries, and is widely held to be directly responsible for the poverty Haiti now experiences.
Are you challenged? How do you think this happened? Haiti revolution and slavery is literally part of napoleonic wars that I mentioned, but you started saying I don’t know history. How do you seemingly know stuff about Haiti, yet don’t know this? Countries usually don’t see something that happened a century or two ago relevant to modern times
Please, read the wiki link you sent me, but obviously failed to read it yourself, especially the part about who owned the debt after ±1900 (forgot the year, but Haiti’s debt was transferred to be paid to US, not France).
I get your point, but also, Haiti’s final payment to France was in 1947
Except they paid to United States, not France.
government of the United States funded the acquisition of Haiti’s treasury in 1911,[10] and in 1922, the rest of Haiti’s debt was moved to be paid to American investors.[11] The New York Times states that it took until 1947 for Haiti to finally pay off all the associated interest to the National City Bank of New York (now Citibank).
Too late dipshits.
How can it be too late if he didn’t do it, but just planned to do it sometimes later… wait…
“will”
What is even the point in recognizing the tiny piece of land that is Gaza and the mostly desert that is west jordan land as a palestinian state? In this case, i guess it’s more than obvious that Israel is an invader into the middle east and shouldn’t even be there in the first place. By cementing a two-state solution, it just gives legitimacy to Israel. I’m in fact for a one-state solution, which is only Palestine. Israel doesn’t have a right to exist after all, this much is clear, finally.
Israel has forfeited their right to exist. I used to be on their side, no longer.
In April he teased that they might recognize Palestine in June. What’s the hold up? https://www.arabprogress.org/en/macron-and-the-recognition-of-a-palestinian-state-the-stated-position-and-its-prospects/
they had to discuss more with israel and traitors to have a strong plan to demilitarize Palestinians while giving zero guarantees that Israel will end occupation
“hello? Based department?”
France was also the loudest opponent within NATO of the second Gulf War, and they also ejected all the US nuclear sites from their country in the 60s. It’s the reason why the “French are cowards” trope keeps getting pushed in American culture.
“there is no French word for entrepreneur”
“French are cowards” trope
Yeah I hate that one. France being great and the French being a bunch of legends aside, the French army is the most successful in all of history to the best of my knowledge. That one “recent” blip aside.
You have to hand it to the Germans though… The oul blitzkrieg was a game changer. No shade on the French. Maybe a little for not reinforcing the Ardennes route but sure look, hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
That one “recent” blip aside.
Even then, France held out for more days than many other WW2 countries who don’t get accused of cowardice for it.
Yeah in the face of it they were pragmatic. Given the circumstances, after the initial outmanoeuvre I’ve never seen anyone criticise what they did with a meaningful alternative and they ate shit to get the Brits back across the channel so they could fight another day.
Vive la France! 🇫🇷
This could be a signal that they would take the right side on the Israel-EU trade debate.
this is a smoke screen to make you forget about Israel-EU trade debate
How is this making me forget about Gaza?
I said t Israel-EU trade debate not forgetting gaza
Yeah, but the biggest issue in front of the EU that has any chance of altering anything in the short term is the trade deal. How does this distract from it?
They are fighting against the US trade war and you want me to believe that they can’t do more against Israel. I don’t want to here any excuses from western leaders who either applauded Israel when they attacked Iran nuclear facilities which is a big war crime or was just silent.
I am not saying they can’t do more, or that they are not culpable.
I am saying that this is Macron inching away from the genocidal chorus towards the side trying to do something. I am not even saying he’s actually going to take that side, just that maybe he will.
I am saying that this is Macron inching away from the genocidal chorus towards the side trying to do something Congrats you got fooled, that’s exactly what Israel and macron want you to believe
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Paris, July 24, 2025
Mr. President,
By letter dated June 9, 2025, you informed France and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia of the will of the Palestinian Authority to put an end to the war in Gaza with a view to achieving just and lasting peace in the region, while strongly reaffirming its support for the implementation of the two-state solution. You condemned the terrorist attacks of October 7, 2023, and called for the immediate release of hostages held by Hamas, advocated the disarmament of Hamas, and its withdrawal from the governance of Gaza. You highlighted the commitment of the Palestinian Authority to fully assume its responsibilities in all Palestinian territories, including Gaza, to undergo deep reforms, and to organize presidential and legislative elections in 2026 in order to strengthen its legitimacy and authority over the future Palestinian State, which you emphasized should not be militarized.
I commend these courageous commitments and, in return, I inform you of France’s mobilization in favor of the implementation of the two-state solution, with Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace and security. This solution constitutes the only path that can respond to the legitimate aspirations of Israelis as well as Palestinians. We must now achieve it as quickly as possible.
Civilian populations have paid an unbearable price during the terrorist attacks of October 7 by Hamas and during the war pursued by Israel in Gaza. At the same time, the prospect of a negotiated solution to the conflict in the Middle East seems to be receding. I do not accept this.
His Excellency Mr. Mahmoud ABBAS President of the Palestinian Authority
No condemnation of Israel occupation , blaming everything on Hamas and asking demilitarization without providing zero security guarantees, yet you think macron is genuine about recognizing Palestine and about Palestinians living in peace
